US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Fortunately, there are smarter pilots back East than"we here on this forum" representing them. The pilots back East who are growing impatient with USAPA's failure and follies.

It's interesting how a west pilot can preach about what we have on the east, but yes there are east pilots who are growing impatient with USAPA. There are east pilots that are growing impatient with the west and the company for their delays. There are east pilots who are impatient and frustrated with all of the above, and then there are those who are happy with USAPA and are patient enough to just let it play out. The big question is how many in each group. If USAPA loses with Kasher, it will be a great time for a representation vote, and that will tell us the truth.

 

[Pi brat]

Attorney Seham, knowing his money train is coming to and end, replied "No, USAPA and its incompetent legal staff would have to delay and start over". Silver was not impressed.

Thanks for your notes. You quoted Seham above. That means you are saying that he said that. I don't believe he did.


Would you like to correct or retract?

 

[Freebird]

You might be right there. Why do you think the company didn't just say they would only use the Nic right off the bat? Do you think if AOL had only sued USAPA and left the company out of this we might be further along? What will the west pilots do if this is dismissed? Try to get to a joint contract so they can proceed with DFR II or just delay and live with what you've got?

Pi,

In all seriouslness, I think the pressure will be on USAPA from the East to get a contract. And they will have no choice but to use the NIC. Cleary knows it will pass. That is why he is afraid to get one out to vote on. It time to count your losses back East and move on. Many of the East pilots are running out of time and do not care about the NIC anymore. They want a raise.

If USAPA tries to get a contract without the NIC, AOL will file for an Injunction to delay the implementation of a new contract. That means it's invalid. "A lottery ticket that the EAST cannot cash...." Sound familiar? DFR 2 in the making.

USAPA = delay, delay, delay

 

[Freebird]

Thanks for your notes. You quoted Seham above. That means you are saying that he said that. I don't believe he did.


Would you like to correct or retract?

I will correct it by saying, Sehams response IMPLIED that (No, USAPA and its incompetent legal staff would have to delay and start over). Silver was not impressed.

I removed the quotes for you.

 

[Pi brat]

Pi,

In all seriouslness, I think the pressure will be on USAPA from the East to get a contract. And they will have no choice but to use the NIC. Cleary knows it will pass. That is why he is afraid to get one out to vote on. It time to count your losses back East and move on. Many of the East pilots are running out of time and do not care about the NIC anymore. They want a raise.

If USAPA tries to get a contract without the NIC, AOL will file for an Injunction to delay the implementation of a new contract. That means it's invalid. "A lottery ticket that the EAST cannot cash...." Sound familiar? DFR 2 in the making.

USAPA = delay, delay, delay

I agree there will be pressure to get a contract and although I don't like to make predictions, I feel very confident that USAPA, under it's current leadership, will not present a contract for a vote that includes the Nic unless someone forces them to. Your second paragraph is exactly what I expect AOL to do. Let's get there, because it seems to me to be the quickest route to the end of this.

 

[cactusboy53]

If ALPA couldn't get you a contract with the NIC in it, why do you think USAPA can?

Uhhhhhh......the AAA MEC instructed the AAA JNC team to LEAVE THE JNC TABLE. You can not negotiate a joint contract if one of three parties decides to simply up & leave. We may have known if the Kirby +10-11%, had the parties stayed. Personally it needed to be much more than that.

If USAPA changes the constitution to show the Nicolau award as the seniority list of the combined pilot group, would you vote for narrow body CA wage at $185 & narrow body wage at $130? Using the AWA contract as the template, I think that would pass with at least a 60-65% in favor. The Nicolau award is the product of an agreed upon process, and it is the seniority list that was accepted and delivered by the prior CBU. It is the seniority list that currently sits on the ninth floor in Tempe.

 

[Pi brat]

I will correct it by saying, Sehams response IMPLIED that (No, USAPA and its incompetent legal staff would have to delay and start over). Silver was not impressed.

I removed the quotes for you.

Thanks. That I can see and the west does have to accept that if we go to DFR II they will make everyone start over, as much as they can. Years away............

 

[Metroyet]

What will the west pilots do if this is dismissed? Try to get to a joint contract so they can proceed with DFR II or just delay and live with what you've got?

Depends upon what the company does. Silver is either going to dismiss this, or tell them what they already know. Stick with the Nic/T.A. and you will never be successfully sued by anyone....or violate the TA, collude with USCABA and allow their second bite at the apple at the sole expense of the West and get sued. The company has no conscience in any of this, they're going to look at the numbers. I have no doubt the company will allow a doh list as long as the contract is AT LEAST as crappy as LOA93. They save enough there to offset being sued. Will East pilots vote for that? Let's say another LOA93 contract gets voted in with the huge doh carrot in it.

Then, West sues, gets injunction slapping the company with the Nic. list. Now, you have a ratified joint contract...LOA93 style, the Nic award, and no financial relief in sight for the majority of your remaining years as an airline pilot. Is that what you expect USAPA to provide for you...the dues paying member? Nothing they've ever promised has come to fruition. Are you willing to bet your remaining career on a USAPA "promise"?

What seems obvious to me is this: there is no way the company is going to get a crystal clear green light to do as they please. Their only safe harbor is to use the Nic. award. They have absolutely no obligation what so ever to agree to anything USAPA wants. They'll either want to end this with a decent/realistic contract with the Nic. award, or just keep the mess alive tied up in court. The NMB is going to park negotiations fairly soon anyway. There will never be a strike, separate ops forever, LOA 93 in perpetuity. That's where this is going. Why? because 53% of the pilot group was dumb enough to believe $e$ham and his outright lies. The same 53% also refused to face reality and accept the fact that seniority is seniority. It isn't longevity or anything else. $e$ham, Bradford et.al, and the ignorant 53% will have cost your pilot group more money than anything else in the history of the profession. Honestly, many of you would be making more money today if AAA simply went under a few years ago. Something would have filled the void bringing many of you with it. Oh well, water under the bridge.

$e$ham went all in with your futures, (not his of course, he's rich beyond his wildest dreams thanks to your dues money). Barring any changes, I'd get comfortable. Nothing is going to change for a very long time. If ever. At least with USAPA. I'd venture a guess that when Kasher crushes the hyped up, manufactured Dreams of your lunatic leadership, USAPA will be on the fast track to the funeral pyre. There isn't 53% anymore. Not by a long shot. I bet half the original USAPA voters wouldn't vote for them again. Maybe that's the light at the end of the tunnel...the flames of USAPA burning to the ground. Good Luck.

 

[cactusboy53]

Otter
ALPA couldn't even get it to a vote. They turned tail and ran away from the monster they had created.

If by "they" you are referring to the AAA JNC as instructed by the AAA MEC, then yes you are correct.

 

[Freebird]

Thanks. That I can see and the west does have to accept that if we go to DFR II they will make everyone start over, as much as they can. Years away............

Are you saying that the East knows what they are doing is wrong? That they know the Nic is the list and the best way to avoid it is to Delay? I'd say you are losing more than you'll ever gain. Not a good plan in the long run.

It seems that the East is choosing to sell their souls to avoid Binding Arbitration. Anything to avoid the Nic right? Integrity is misplaced with USAPA and its 'supporters'. Pathetic.

USAPA = No raise for you old man !!!

 

[crazystnic]

Are you saying that the East knows what they are doing is wrong? That they know the Nic is the list and the best way to avoid it is to Delay? I'd say you are losing more than you'll ever gain. Not a good plan in the long run.

It seems that the East is choosing to sell their souls to avoid Binding Arbitration. Anything to avoid the Nic right? Integrity is misplaced with USAPA and its 'supporters'. Pathetic.

USAPA = No raise for you old man !!!

********************************************
he is not saying that at all. What we are saying is the NIC was a list that could not be ratified and needed to be modified.
The west was unwilling to modify. So now the EAST will use all available means including the ability of the RLA to not use the NIC.

we all knew wiht the vote of USAPA that this was going to be a long process... No surprise here....

Contracts take a long time and especially in these circumstances.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Depends upon what the company does. Silver is either going to dismiss this, or tell them what they already know. Stick with the Nic/T.A. and you will never be successfully sued by anyone....or violate the TA, collude with USCABA and allow their second bite at the apple at the sole expense of the West and get sued. The company has no conscience in any of this, they're going to look at the numbers. I have no doubt the company will allow a doh list as long as the contract is AT LEAST as crappy as LOA93. They save enough there to offset being sued. Will East pilots vote for that? Let's say another LOA93 contract gets voted in with the huge doh carrot in it.

Then, West sues, gets injunction slapping the company with the Nic. list. Now, you have a ratified joint contract...LOA93 style, the Nic award, and no financial relief in sight for the majority of your remaining years as an airline pilot. Is that what you expect USAPA to provide for you...the dues paying member? Nothing they've ever promised has come to fruition. Are you willing to bet your remaining career on a USAPA "promise"?

What seems obvious to me is this: there is no way the company is going to get a crystal clear green light to do as they please. Their only safe harbor is to use the Nic. award. They have absolutely no obligation what so ever to agree to anything USAPA wants. They'll either want to end this with a decent/realistic contract with the Nic. award, or just keep the mess alive tied up in court. The NMB is going to park negotiations fairly soon anyway. There will never be a strike, separate ops forever, LOA 93 in perpetuity. That's where this is going. Why? because 53% of the pilot group was dumb enough to believe $e$ham and his outright lies. The same 53% also refused to face reality and accept the fact that seniority is seniority. It isn't longevity or anything else. $e$ham, Bradford et.al, and the ignorant 53% will have cost your pilot group more money than anything else in the history of the profession. Honestly, many of you would be making more money today if AAA simply went under a few years ago. Something would have filled the void bringing many of you with it. Oh well, water under the bridge.

$e$ham went all in with your futures, (not his of course, he's rich beyond his wildest dreams thanks to your dues money). Barring any changes, I'd get comfortable. Nothing is going to change for a very long time. If ever. At least with USAPA. I'd venture a guess that when Kasher crushes the hyped up, manufactured Dreams of your lunatic leadership, USAPA will be on the fast track to the funeral pyre. There isn't 53% anymore. Not by a long shot. I bet half the original USAPA voters wouldn't vote for them again. Maybe that's the light at the end of the tunnel...the flames of USAPA burning to the ground. Good Luck.

Agree completely on all points. It was awesome sitting there and watching Siegle outline why he's convinced the company will get sued by the West and lose if the company goes along with USAPA. We've accomplished a hell of a lot. Nobody saw the West coming, especially the Angry F/Os.

 

[CactusPilot1]

If USAPA tries to get a contract without the NIC, AOL will file for an Injunction to delay the implementation of a new contract. That means it's invalid. "A lottery ticket that the EAST cannot cash...." Sound familiar? DFR 2 in the making.

USAPA = delay, delay, delay

I'd like to see their union try to cash that lottery ticket. Company will tell tell them to pound sand with the threat of a lawsuit hanging over their heads.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Agree completely on all points. It was awesome sitting there and watching Siegle outline why he's convinced the company will get sued by the West and lose if the company goes along with USAPA. We've accomplished a hell of a lot. Nobody saw the West coming, especially the Angry F/Os.

You do realize US Airways already won against Addington and successfully had themselves removed as a defendant in the DFR suit.

 

[nic4us]

What will the west pilots do if this is dismissed? Try to get to a joint contract so they can proceed with DFR II or just delay and live with what you've got?

It all depends on what is said in the order to dismiss. Actually, a dismissal could be the West's best outcome, and even the east's best outcome. Judge Silver told the company "you know what you need to do to avoid being sued by the West pilots, so why do you need court intervention". She also asked questions about offering enough money or incentives in a contract to get usapa to accept the Nic and get it into a ratified contract. In other words, she proded the company to put a decent offer on the table to get the Nic ratified into the joint contract. I like this judge!

Also, judge Silver seems to be of the same opinion as myself, and the West in general as to what the 9ths ruling means. Which is, not ripe, come up with something that does not get you sued, and you will not be sued, (translation in real terms, use the Nic or get sued, cause the West is not budging).

The bigger question is what does the company do if Silver dismisses? Do they go to the 9th, like Parker said they would? Yesterday, in court, Seeham accused the company of bad faith litigation in the filing of this DJ. So, does the company appeal, and give him credence? Or, do they tell usapa to stick DOH, because they cannot escape the liability they will suffer for abandoning the already accepted Nic? (total aside here, the lawyer representing the people who are trying to renege on binding arbitration told the court yesterday that Judge Wake was biased, the company is litigating in bad faith. All while there is a rule 11 motion against M Harper. It seems everybody is playing dirty pool except the little lawyer who represents the scumbags who wish to renege on binding arbitration.)