US Pilots Labor Discussion

[lynyrdskynyrd]

You are right, I made a WAG and was off by a few % points, at least looking at the Nic. If you look at active west pilots, I think I got pretty close.

The bottom non-EMB east captain in May is Crabill, DCA 33 hired 6/87. Looking at the Nic, the AWA pilot below him was Ajayi P2853. Odell was p3173, so a difference of 320(not exact, since a few p #s were already gone, but not enough to count everyone). Cleardirect said you guys had 1884(I believe that was the number, not looking it up) so Crabill had all but 17% of AWA pilots above him.

I've perused several of the east bids, and it looks to me like there are many more people that choose the right seat for whatever reason, allowing some captain seats to go farther toward the bottom of the list than happens out west. I think multiple domiciles and different pay rates has a lot to do with that, if I had to guess.

In comparison, the west is a one domicile airline, with the exception of the few years LAS was open, and one pay rate across the board. So the junior most west captain is closer to the middle of the list than happens back east, at least if looks that way to me. On the west, there are a handul of fos who are very senior and bypass for whatever reason, but comparatively few.

I think looking at the bottom narrow body captain on both sides, and then looking where they fall next to each other on the nic results in a little bit of a skewed perspective, not quite apples to apples. But then again merging these two lists has always been an apples and oranges proposition no matter how you look at it.

 

[Pi brat]

I've perused several of the east bids, and it looks to me like there are many more people that choose the right seat for whatever reason, allowing some captain seats to go farther toward the bottom of the list than happens out west. I think multiple domiciles and different pay rates has a lot to do with that, if I had to guess.

In comparison, the west is a one domicile airline, with the exception of the few years LAS was open, and one pay rate across the board. So the junior most west captain is closer to the middle of the list than happens back east, at least if looks that way to me. On the west, there are a handul of fos who are very senior and bypass for whatever reason, but comparatively few.

I think looking at the bottom narrow body captain on both sides, and then looking where they fall next to each other on the nic results in a little bit of a skewed perspective, not quite apples to apples.

It might be a little, but not that much. Bottom capt. next to the bottom 17% of the west list? One of the reasons a lot of guys sit in the right seat is because the right seat of a 76 or 330 is a great job, that pays much better than narrow body F/O.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

It might be a little, but not that much. Bottom capt. next to the bottom 17% of the west list? One of the reasons a lot of guys sit in the right seat is because the right seat of a 76 or 330 is a great job, that pays much better than narrow body F/O.

How close to the bottom of the east list is the bottom east captain? It probably doesn't go to the bottom 17%, so I see your point there. I think both sides see themselves as being better off as is than taking the others position in order to be one happy family. Perception appears to be reality in this case.

We'll all just keep on keepin on, and one day this will be nudged into where it is meant to be. I guess.

 

[cleardirect]

And that's the point. At 56 years old, in his DOH position, he will retire as a 757/767 International captain, possibly an A330 captain. Nicolau would keep him seated exactly where he is until 65.

I can't figure out why the west whiners are unable to understand that, yet they can actually fly airplanes!

How long was he going to be that 330 captain?

Even your own data says that the Nicolau delayed the east no more that 2 years. So you are incorrect. Learn the facts.

 

[cleardirect]

Here we go again. You can not say that! I've never met anyone that could actualy see the future. Please give me the date, or even a range that would have happened and what would have been in the new contract. You never know what you will get until it is done and ratified, and that Sir is a FACT. As I've said, by the time Nic came out we had probably already missed the sweet spot for getting a contract, and the added pressure of the Nic may have made getting a joint contract impossible. That veto was there for both sides, remember? We will never know because the majority of east pilots decided to take another avenue. Why do the F/As not have a contract? Is that USAPA's fault? The gave up on being tied to the pilots, what a year ago? But no where near a contract. You bring up DL, but they learned from us and did it vastly differently, so that is apples and oranges. Had Doug thrown money at the situation beforehand, maybe the outcome would have been different, BUT HE DIDN'T AND IT ISN'T! Besides, Doug has told you he will not throw the kind of money at us that DL threw at their pilots because he "can't".

As far as DOH being worse for the west than Nic for the east, that is subjective, it depends on what pilots you use. With some you are right, with some you are wrong. Now if you say that DOH is worse than Nic for the west, I will agree, heck, who couldn't?

How is it that you east guys can look into the future and say with certainty that a contract with Nicolau will not pass?

Are you say that your own pilots are wrong? That they can not see the future either?

 

[Pi brat]

How close to the bottom of the east list is the bottom east captain? It probably doesn't go to the bottom 17%, so I see your point there. I think both sides see themselves as being better off as is than taking the others position in order to be one happy family. Perception appears to be reality in this case.

We'll all just keep on keepin on, and one day this will be nudged into where it is meant to be. I guess.

Just looking at the latest list on wings it looks like he sits about 65%. I'm not sure how much of an accurate picture that is since there are many, many pilots senior to him out, and many pilots junior to him out, listed as Med, LOA and Fur. I guess to get a real no-apples and oranges you would have to take actual active pilots and work it out. The EMB and widebodies also throw off comparisons since the west side had neither. One reason the bottom captains on the east may go more relatively junior than west is our reserve system.

You are correct about the perception/ reality thing. One big problem is that we can't see what would happen under a Nic or DOH situation. I think each sides worst fears are probably overblown, but we won't know until it happens.

Take care.

 

[Pi brat]

How is it that you east guys can look into the future and say with certainty that a contract with Nicolau will not pass?

Are you say that your own pilots are wrong? That they can not see the future either?

If you are going to address these posts to me would you please at least read what I've written? Look at #7393, and #7395 and get back to me.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Absolutely. The Nic may very well be ratified in a joint contract someday. I think that day is a long, long way off, but it may happen and I've always said that.

And until then, status quo.

 

[traderjake]

When you say jetBlue or Spirit contract, do you mean rates or the whole contract?

The whole contract.

 

[Pi brat]

And until then, status quo.

Yep, unless the LOA 93 grievance is won by USAPA.

 

[Pi brat]

The whole contract.

Well, as I said I don't have enough info. on their contract but I would be concerned with the min fleet issues, and scope. Maybe they have that nailed. Besides the pay rates, what appeals to you in their contract? Or is it even a contract since they are non-union? (jetBlue, anyway)

 

[doh nogo]

The difference between 767one's argument and yours is that a scab is forever, and the act of scabbing is forever fresh. What USA320 posted was old news because those pilots could have, or may already have, shaken hands and apologized to each other. But USA320 continues to bring it up.

BS, nycbusdriver.

The scab thing is only ONE example of many beaten dead horses continuously brought up by the usual suspects I referred to. If it was only that one scab thing I might agree with you. But it is not. Do I really need to post the many many things said repeatedly (ie: beating the dead horse) that none of you complain about until it comes from the other side? Or can we just admit that it happens from the east side more than enough to prove the point that complaining about it when a west supporter does it, is indeed a double standard.

This is one of the biggest reasons your side loses on credibility. No matter what anyone out east does, USAPA and those that wave the DOH flag walk on water as far as many of you are concerned. There are only one or two of you that will call foul on your own side.

Here are some beaten horses to name a few:
- ALLEGED drug running and working struck work in Australia.
- Boeing Boy has relatives on the west and threw his PI coworkers under the bus as an ALPA rep. (Unsubstantiated.)
- 767Jetz and others do not work for who they say they work for. They are furloughed west pilots or pump gas at the local station. (More BS)
- Nic is dead, didn't you hear? (premature opinion at best.)
- USAPA can use whatever list they want as per the 9th ruling (Incorrect. Ripeness ONLY)
- DOH is not a staple job. (Puhlease!)
- West pilots sent excrement to USAPA. (Dismissed with prejudice.)

So where are you guys proclaiming to those players to give it a rest, it's old news? I stand by what I said. Nothing but double standards.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

How is it that you east guys can look into the future and say with certainty that a contract with Nicolau will not pass?

It will not pass with USAPA because they will most definitely get sued for DFR for going against the constitution that was voted on by a majority of pilots. So that same injunction threat that comes from west when an unquestionably ripe contract is ratified would apply for the east pilots that would file upon a nic ratification.

All you have to do to avoid that threat is get the constitution changed by your reps beforehand, or elect a new agent. Those things could happen in the next 5 years if LOA 84 rates or yearly raises are stifled, but the ratifiable contract will take more money than the company is willing to part with, just like scooter said 3-4 years ago.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Violence from Within. How will the Board of Pilot Representatives Respond?

See Story

 

[fodase]

What does it take to move an office?

At this point we think it takes a miracle. Many of you have probably seen the e-mails and updates making wild accusations and charges.
A little background and history of the issue is in order: The newly created US Airline Pilots Association was in need of office space in April 2008, as it had just become the bargaining agent for US Airways pilots. The original founders signed a three-year lease for about 3500 square feet of office space. That lease will expire at the end of April 2011. At a BPR meeting this past summer, the Executive Vice President brought to the BPR's attention this fact and had some suggestions. With the economy as it is, commercial real estate has dropped significantly in price and better deals are available.
The EVP contacted a commercial real estate broker and made an agreement that he would help the association find about 8500 square feet. In this type of arrangement, it is the lessor who will pay the bill for the broker. However, the President of the association had a major problem with the EVP signing this contract with the broker. The President then called for a BPR conference call to "discuss" this outrage. After what we believed would have to be the worst union meetings that we ever have attended (or will ever attend), it was decided that the EVP would go back to the broker, add a clause that USAPA could get out of the contract if the BPR did not agree, and then provide the contract to President Cleary for him to affix his signature. The BPR voted to approve the broker contract, provided that the escape clause would be added.
Fast forward several months. The broker found eleven different properties that would meet the union's needs, and he set up "walk throughs" for these properties. That field of properties was then narrowed to five. The officers and a BPR member then took tours of these five remaining properties. At the January BPR meeting, the EVP presented this information to the board with a recommendation of three properties. Needless to say there was disagreement between the EVP and the President, and a little more drama was involved, but the field was then narrowed to just two properties. One place known as "Lake Point" and another property called "Woodlawn." Either property could be had with a choice of either a 5 year, or 7 year lease.
The lease at the present location expires at the end of April, and an extension to the lease had been discussed, but the cost would double on a month-to-month basis. Your PHX representatives thought this would be irresponsible, since the board and the EVP have been working on this project since July. We were in possession of the facts and required information, we just needed to get to a vote. There is a substantial lead time required with office buildings due to the need to "build out" the internal space to meet our requirements, in addition to the time required to move the USAPA World Wide Headquarters. So the board, desiring to move forward, make a selection, and finish this project called for a special meeting with the single agenda item of "office space."
Here is where the union train goes off the rails. On January 15, an e-mail from a board member went out requesting a special meeting as the Broker told us he needed a decision by February 1, 2011. The C&BL requires 1/3, or 4 members to call a meeting. Within a few hours, seven board members responded in favor of a meeting. On January 16 we heard from the President about what a busy schedule he had and how it was an inconvenient time for a meeting about selecting a new office. According to the Constitution, it is supposedly the President who works for the board (and not the other way around). Not to be deterred, the BPR set a deadline for the President to call for the meeting, and if not, the BPR decided that it would have the Secretary/Treasurer call for the meeting in accordance with Robert's Rules if the President missed the deadline. The President missed that deadline, so the seven members of the board who had originally called for the meeting then directed the S/T to call the meeting. We then heard from the President (in an overly-dramatic fashion) and he asserted the theory that he was the only one (or in his absence, only the VP) who could call a meeting. The message was in the form of, shall we say an "unkind" e-mail to the entire internal USAPA mailing list. The email was disparaging to the S/T, the EVP, and even the entire board. This did not set a positive tone for a meeting that should have only been the straight-forward business decision of choosing office space. The President did eventually call for a meeting, which took place on January 21st.
Just so that everyone knows the players in this game, the President, and the CLT representatives preferred the Lake Point property. The rest of the board was either undecided, or leaning toward Woodlawn. So sets the controversy. There was a three-hour call which should have been plenty of time to debate and vote on the issue. During the call, it became clear that we were not getting any closer to making the decision, and had not even discussed the 5 or 7 year lease aspect. Time was getting short and the CLT reps moved a resolution to end the debate and make a decision in favor of their preferred "Lake Point" property right then. A vote was taken and the resolution failed by a vote of 8 to 3. The call ended and the meeting went into recess to be resumed at the call of the chair.
At this point the ugly politics of personal destruction began. Many of you may have seen e-mails, or web posts, or even a letter from a former BOS representative accusing anyone that opposed the President and the Lake Point property of being anti-everything. The letter stated that if some of the East reps dared to agree with the West reps, then they were colluding and that it must be stopped. The letter continued to assert that if you don't vote for Lake Point, then you were anti-USAPA, anti- president, AND (most of all) Anti-DOH! Let us be crystal clear, this was only about the new headquarters location for the union, and a simple business decision. It has nothing at all to do with the seniority dispute, and certainly not about "being against USAPA" and let's not forget that the President is not USAPA- the line pilots are.
Since we do not have a background in commercial real estate, some of this made no sense to us but we sorted out some of the numbers anyway. After adding the rent, "build-out" cost, building "give back," etcetera, we get to bottom line numbers. As you will see, there is a difference of $229,449 or $272,459 over the life of the 5 or 7 years leases. Not the $25,000 per year some people have stated.

Wood Lawn:
5 Years
7 Years
Lake Point
5 Years
7 Years
Total Amount
$616,941
$897,973

$846,390
$1,170,432
Net effective Per Annum
$111,250
$114,199

$161,329
$152,952

Once the battle lines were drawn and electronic attacks were launched, it was time for the continuation of the special meeting. This second call took place on January 25th. David could not be on that call because he was flying and asked PHX First Officer Pat O'Neill to be his Duly Designated Representative (DDR), since Pat has considerable real estate experience. This call was supposed to be a one-and-one-half hour event to complete the debate and make a decision.
This call, however, has been characterized by some in attendance as having been the most disgusting and blatant attempt yet to thwart the will of those not in agreement with Cleary on any matter. The meeting was controlled, monopolized, and a questionable ruling by the chair disgusted a majority of the board. Again the CLT reps brought a resolution to the table that was plainly designed as a "poison pill" resolution for the purpose of killing any debate and preventing action on a property other than the one desired by the minority and the President. This is one of the more concerning parts of that resolution.
"Be it further resolved that BPR is fully aware of all the consequences associated with this decision and accepts all legal and proprietary responsibility for choosing this substandard property and location for its headquarters, and".
The CLT Representatives wanted the association to take on any and all legal liability stemming from occupying that building.
We ask that you read this resolution when it is available and ask yourselves if you would be willing to agree to the provisions in that document? Would you want your association to accept unlimited responsibility for liability? When the minutes of these calls are approved the entire complete resolutions will be available for you to look at.
The meeting was moving quickly (for once) and Roberts' Rules were being applied in a less than consistent manner. At this point, Eric moved to "indefinitely postpone" the CLT resolution. After taking about twenty minutes to discern what a motion to "indefinitely postpone" the issue on the floor, the Chairman (Mike Cleary) then ruled that all discussion about the Woodlawn property must end because the motion was postponed. Eric then attempted to "challenge the chair," (which is a proper motion that must be made before moving onto other business), about the chairs ruling that this meant that no action could then be taken on the Woodlawn property. The chair would not recognize Eric at this time by stating that he must wait until his turn on the speakers list before challenging his ruling. The President was not correct about that, but in all fairness, no member of your leadership team has all 400 pages of "Robert's Rules of Order" memorized. At that time the meeting clock had been run out like a football game, and the DCA Chairman made a motion to recess the meeting until February 1st (rather than letting the meeting end without a decision). This was a good move on his part, but nonetheless the call ended (though not the meeting) again without a decision being made. We would now have another meeting scheduled for February 1, (which the president wanted as a "face-to-face" this time), which would have caused all eleven board members to travel to CLT to again discuss an item that a majority of the board had decided and was ready to vote on long ago. There simply was no need for additional "flight pay loss" or additional expenses, so most of the board did not support the idea of having an in-person meeting to settle the issue. It was already past time to vote!
To clear up what could be called an urban legend: The biggest objection we have heard about Woodlawn is that the area is unsafe. That is, that it is in a "high crime area" and we should not subject our officers, committee members or employees to that "possibility." The EVP has spoken to the Chief of Police as well as the "Watch Commander" for the area and investigated the crime statistics and reports. Gary has also interviewed the other tenets of the building. What made up our minds was that this location was acceptable were the interviews with the existing residents. There are tenants in this building that have been in the same location for 15-20 years. They did not report any unusual crime or maintenance problems with the building. That length of stay in a commercial building is unusual and it speaks volumes. Yes, there are some issues that need to be addressed, but those can (and will) be handled during the final contract writing and "build out" process.
The Woodlawn property is located at 200 E. Wood Lawn Road. This building shares a parking lot with the Best Western Sterling hotel which is where many of the crews used to stay during overnights, and where many commuting pilots still do stay. Within the "danger zone" of one-thousand feet is where the Four Points hotel is also located. This is the same hotel where the USAPA officers stay while they are in CLT doing their work. The Four Points is also where BPR members often stay when we have meetings in CLT, and is also where some crews stay during training.
There are several restaurants located within a short walk of this hotel. A bar/restaurant called "McCoy's" is located just around the corner and less than a block from the Four Points. To get there from the Four Points, a walk across a poorly lit parking lot, under a bridge and across a street is required. The Woodlawn property is just on the other side of the street from McCoy's. We see the Woodlawn building on the short walk to dinner all of the time. We then walk back to the hotel at night. We have stayed there several times over the last year, but never heard a single complaint or concern about danger or crime until we were going to lease that building across the street. There is something contrived about the sudden and extreme security concerns about the area, because it just wasn't an issue before. The Woodlawn property is near the airport, a commuter hotel, and a crew hotel. Wouldn't it be nice to have easier access to your union's National Officers? During a layover, or even during that long sit between flights, you will soon be able to jump on a hotel van to go visit the World Wide HQ. Then you can enjoy a face-to-face chat with the very people who have been working hard to deliver on all of those promises made three years ago.
Another advantage of the Woodlawn property is the additional cost savings beyond the property rental fees alone. The Woodlawn property is well within walking distance of the Four Points, so we will save the cost of local transportation. As of today, there is a $20 per night difference between the room rates at the Four Points and the Hyatt Place where USAPA sometimes holds meetings. At least 1000 room nights per year, this results in an additional $20,000 per year or $100,000.00 over the life of the lease. This represents a significant savings for the Association and, ultimately, the pilot's dues money.
When taken as a whole, we think that the Woodlawn property makes the most sense, and we were pleased that it appeared to be the front-runner. We will admit that the Lake Point building is very nice, located in what appears to be a nice area and also has a few amenities. But $250,000 is $250,000 no matter how you look at it. So we ask you: Would you, as the lowest paid pilot group in the industry, rather have the pretty building, or the functional building as your union hall? From what committee or domicile budget would you like to take the difference from? Safety, grievance, NAC, strike-prep, training? There is always a limited amount of resources available, and the representatives that you have elected must determine how to allocate your money most efficiently.
Keep in mind that USAPA is a labor union. We don't sell anything, and we don't need to impress anyone with our office. If someone is coming to the office is it to sell USAPA something or provide a service, and not the other way around. We are not like ALPA that requires the big and impressive building because USAPA is supposed to be doing the job better, and for less money. After all, it is your money.
The Final Outcome:
It took several meetings, three conference calls and a lot of empty rhetoric, but the Board of Pilot Representatives finally made a decision. The resolution that finally passed is attached. Your union will be housed at the Woodlawn property for the next five years ideally beginning on May 1st, 2011. This was not an easy decision or without a considerable amount of disagreement, but it has come to a conclusion.
But, before this simple resolution passed, there was another attempt to change the game again. After a brief recess during the February 1st conference call, an amendment was offered by the CLT reps to provide additional private security at the building in order to walk the employees to and from their cars. It was the opinion of most of the BPR that, while this sounded like a noble idea, it was a bit late in the decision making process to be of any value and the need for this additional security (when the building already has security) was unnecessary and only based on the opinion that the existing security was inadequate. We have spent six months working through the process investigating many ancillary items. It seemed disingenuous and irresponsible to throw in a last minute amendment which could have added an additional unknown cost (possibly $50,000-$60,000.00 per year) to the Union's expenses. No one had researched any Security companies or the cost, the majority thought it was unnecessary, and this amendment was promptly voted down.
In yet another attempt (and thankfully, the last one) to prevent the selection of the Woodlawn property, the CLT reps again proposed a substitute resolution that, after six months of hard work and using the resource of a commercial real estate broker, would have required a {"do-over"} of the entire process. In other words, the substitute resolution would have required both of the final candidates to be thrown out, and to start the process over. In the face of a final decision, it was actually stated by several members of the BPR that a "do over" was in order. Does this sound familiar to you? Most of the board was incredulous as this would have set us back another 3-5 months and cost the association double rent while we stayed in the present location. Practically speaking, the EVP and the broker had looked at the available spaces in CLT that met a host of well thought out requirements. It was not like there was some hidden and spectacular office space that no one knew about. We would have probably ended up with the same choices again, except without the top picks this time and months later (and a bit poorer for spending excess rent). Also, we doubt the real estate broker would have been too impressed with his client after spending months looking for a property, delivering what was requested, and then to having to do it all over again. It would have made the association look foolish and indecisive. That substitute resolution was also voted down as well.
After a long journey and some hard feelings, the board has made a decision where to house the World Wide Headquarters of USAPA for the next five years. On a personal note, some of the things said during this lengthy debate were offensive and out of line. We hope that the next issue can be handled with a little more professionalism and civility.
Sincerely,
David Braid
PHX Chairman
Eric Ferguson
PHX Vice-Chairman
Roger Velez
PHX Vice-Chairman
Pat O'Neill
DDR during two of the required calls.
__________________