US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Freebird]

Thanks for the reply and apology. I'm glad to hear you say that the Kirby is unacceptable, I couldn't get an answer from certain west posters, they just take off for the weeds. You do accept that the Kirby is the best we have actually seen from the company, don't you? The F/As, without a seniority fight, haven't seen much better.

Kirby is unacceptable. Without the eintire pilot group pulling in the same direction, absent a merger with a bunch of cash thrown at the pilots and USAPA's ignorance on Binding Arbitration, Kirby is all you're going to be offered. USAPA doesnt have the teeth to get any better. Doug knows it. The West knows it. Why doesnt the East, besides Pi Brat and Traderjake?

I have to disagree with you on several things, but maybe if the whole merger was done differently we would have all had fewer disagreements.

The only thing the East cares about is Date of Hire. They cannot see past that and they are paying to price daily. Sure, you will will get an uprade sooner (what 1 1/2 years) than you would with the NIC. If thats your concern, you should really question your Ego issues. Your upgrade will net you less money than a SWA First Officer. Congrats.

I think pay parity should have happened the day the merger closed. Surely we have learned over the years that paying people two different rates for doing the same work is destructive. There were plenty of other things in our contract that would have brought the east pilots to the table, with vacation being the main one.

Your contract sucks. Period. Yet the East is too stubborn to do anything the West does. Why? Because the East think they "know" better. Wrong. As Trader said, "Pay Parity would have given the East little incentive to get a contract." He's right. This mess should have been over years ago. In the meantime, it is the East who will never recoup the losses sustained while throwing money at Seham to sell you hope.

As we have seen, with the lack of a contract being available as a veto to an unfavorable seniority award, it doesn't matter how big the pay difference is, it won't bring the pilots to the table. The pay disparity between east and west has been damaged our customer service.
Yeah Doug can point to our great numbers, but on any given day you might have the best flight on us, or the worst.

The lack of contract is designed by your ill fated USAPA. Cleary and his pets are afraid to put a contract out for a vote. Why? Because they know it would pass. The East pilots will take the money and sell out the AFOs. How has the pay disparity damaged our customer service? The East employees have a rather piss-poor, downtrodden attitude and have done nothing but hurt this or any company. Look around. There is a difference between the downrodden East (agents, counter, ramp, pilots, F/A's) and the relatively happy West. The East is toxic.

It also has other implications, which I believe a recent survey correctly highlighted. I see these things every time I go to work, and as someone who grew up with a PI idea of customer service, I hate it. Parity on day one would have made it a cost of the merger, now it will be a cost to the west pilots.

Look around Pi, you are supporting those who hurt the company. Explain how it will cost the West more than it has cost the East.


Why does the burden rest on our shoulders? He is managing our expectations at every crew news, and every State of the Airline.

A conventional strike at US Airways today is impossible, IMHO. USAPA does not have full support of enough of the east pilots, and none of the west.

Winner ! Winner ! Chicken Dinner !

Whether they can be effective with CHAOS, or using the Teamsters, I have no idea. I think we are a long way from finding out. The east and west pilots have made their decisions, and for near(long?) future we will toil under LOA 93 and have better attrition in a few years and the west will live with their rates and almost no movement. Hopefully we will put the question of LOA 93 pay thaw to bed soon, so that won't be driving anyone's actions. Perhaps when that is done there will be a CBA vote, and we can really see how everyone feels. If ALPA comes back I will try to work with them as I have tried with USAPA.

As Parker says "its up to you". You can continue on your path of misfortune and despair. Or you can accept Binding Arbitration, which you entered into freely and imporve you lot in life. Again, capturing an upgrade and going from $85 to $125 isnt a lot to brag about.

In the meantime, you choose to live under LOA93 by supporting the clowns at USAPA. You know as well as Cleary that a vote with the NIC would be ratified.

Doug and the boys have shown the world how not to do a merger, and I think, how not to run an airline. They chase the numbers and if they come out OK, the airline is great. They don't see the everyday issues our customers and employees deal with, and they have no idea of how great this airline could really be.

I think they know. They just enjoy pimping you out.

I wish I could read Doug's mind. Does he go to bed every night thanking God that he dumped this great money saving pilot fight in his lap? He has taken full advantage of it, and plenty of people on both sides(whether the west and east non-members admit it or not) have given him the rope to hang us with.

There you go blaming again. Look in the mirror. ALPA is you. USAPA is you. You have the same dysfunctional guys running things with zero ability to succeed. Yet the ignorant East pilot supports them. In your post it seems that you may be seeing the light.

USAPA is giving Parker the rope and you are cheering them on.


USAPA = Free rope today.

 

[Pi brat]

AWA made $60 million in the fist half of 2005. You were facing liquidation. With 5% of the airline traffic disappearing, all the remaining boats would have been lifted, including AWA's. The only beneficiaries in saving AAA were the AAA employees. SWA pilots should have had those upgrades they would have netted by taking over PHL. AMR should have gotten those handful of international slots. But Doug had to get some bankers together and screw things up for everyone.

Me? I've had to pay for the antics of a collection of self-entitled baby boomers with no ethics.

Nicolau gave you two-thirds of the upgrades through the ratios. Congratulations. You've managed to get through separate ops exactly what you would have had under Nicolau, only you're doing it for much less in remuneration and work rules.

Lose seats? It's all about block hours. Doesn't matter if it's in a 737-200 or a 757. Block hours are block hours. On a combined list, a third of the retirements from the left seat were coming from the West. How do you suppose Nicolau came up with the integration ratios? Read the arbitration transcripts! Now under separate ops we're assured we'll keep them and not have them lost through the company moving airplanes East and then being kept out by the devastating C&Rs.

The facts are otherwise. DOH is theft from the West. Everyone sees it but you, a member of the entitlement generation who inherited the strongest country in the world from the greatest generation, and then wrecked it. The lack of ethics coming from the mid 50s AAA pilot group is in keeping with the rest of corporate and government malfeasance we're seeing today. At least as it applies to our situation, you all will be getting what you deserve. Enjoy LOA93. You deserve it.

We've been through this before, you refuse to listen. AWA lost money in the 4th quarter 2004, made a small NET in 1st quarter '05 only on fuel hedging, lost money 2nd quarter '05. YOUR boy Doug has said AWAs model no longer worked, you were headed for a cash crunch and would have been in no position to take advantage of a US shutdown. I know it hurts, but accept you didn't work for SWA.

Our bottom 737 captain has about 90% of the west list on top of him under Nic. Think he would have still upgraded if Nic had been implemented in '08? Worth it for the whole group? I don't know, but the whole group seems in no hurry to change things, do they?

Do reserves fly block hours? Think about it, but don't hurt yourself.

Am I a boomer?

 

[767one]

The incident was January 25th.

That may be history for someone with the attention span of a gnat.

Trader,

My point I guess is not so much the date of Jan.25th as much as the fact that the same post appears numerous times from the same poster and pretty much gets the same response.Now what we were talking about?


Regards,

Bob

 

[aquagreen73s]

Our bottom 737 captain has about 90% of the west list on top of him under Nic.

Unless he's a late 88 hire, that's total BS. Why do you guys feel compelled to just throw utter BS up as fact? Do you not see the connection between lying to everyone, including yourselves, and your plight?

Oh wait a minute...you must mean bottom 737 captain in 2000, right? Got news for you, he/she didn't bring a captain job to the merger.

 

[doh nogo]

usa 320,

Give us a break already, this "news" is so old it qualifies as a history lesson.

Regards,

Bob

You're kidding, right?

HYPOCRITE ALERT!

So what was it... 2 weeks ago? But when your buddy nos posts news events about alleged scabbing 25 to 30 years ago, or things that happened at Piedmont, that's considered a current events post? I don't see you giving him the "give us a break already" speech about his "news."

And by the way, it's not old news since USAPA has yet to comment on what actually happened. Why are they trying to cover up an event that happened on our union's property. We all have a right to know.

So typical. Always trying to redirect attention away from anything that sheds light on USAPA's state of affairs. Next I guess you're going to tell everyone "don't bother to click on the link, since there's nothing worth reading there."

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Unless he's a late 88 hire, that's total BS. Why do you guys feel compelled to just throw utter BS up as fact? Do you not see the connection between lying to everyone, including yourselves, and your plight?

Oh wait a minute...you must mean bottom 737 captain in 2000, right? Got news for you, he/she didn't bring a captain job to the merger.

Well actually he was hired in June of 87, holds it on the current bid and has 84% of the West list on top of him via the Nicalou. He is 56 and will only get more senior as the bids roll by and arguably much better off, LOA 93 or otherwise. So PI was only off by 6%, while a small error, it wasn't utter BS.

With 200 less bid positions than at the time of the merger, his advancement is based on attrition despite the shrinkage.

 

[doh nogo]

A guy gets minor scratches from a light scuffle and Chippie here makes it seem like an international incident!

Yeah a light scuffle. Real professional. Just what we all need from our union. I don't care if it was harsh language, it's unacceptable from "elected" reps of our union. How many "light scuffles" are acceptable in our work place? So if I got on your airplane and punched you in the face, just lightly, and just once, that's OK? I wouldn't be subject to any disciplinary action by you or the company?

What bunch of double standards and slanted perspectives you guys live by. More reason to despise your group. A bunch of unprofessional, temper driven, uncontrollable, angry, thugs.

 

[doh nogo]

Trader,

My point I guess is not so much the date of Jan.25th as much as the fact that the same post appears numerous times from the same poster and pretty much gets the same response.Now what we were talking about?


Regards,

Bob

So basically you object to beating a dead horse. OK, I can buy that. Now send some PM's and make some posts holding your friends Nos and oldie and few others accountable for the same crime and maybe you would gain some credibility. Until then it's the same old double standard BS form you and the rest of the USAPA lynch mob. Don't dish it if you can't take it.

And by the way, since you asked, we were talking about the east's double standards.

 

[doh nogo]

Well actually he was hired in June of 87, holds it on the current bid and has 84% of the West list on top of him via the Nicalou. He is 56 and will only get more senior as the bids roll by and arguably much better off, LOA 93 or otherwise. So PI was only off by 6%, while a small error, it wasn't utter BS.

With 200 less bid positions than at the time of the merger, his advancement is based on attrition despite the shrinkage.

What you guys fail to address is the fact that SOME of your guys will benefit from the attrition only while on LOA93. So a small increase in pay to a sub-standard bankruptcy era rate, while keeping bankruptcy era work rules and vacation might be OK for a small number of you. Meanwhile everyone else continues to suffer while many of your retirements come from the right seat. But the Nic would delay your movement slightly (1.5 - 2 years max) while keeping 2/3 of the attrition you brought to the table and improving life and income for EVERYONE. (And more so the "everyone" on the east, who get a lion's share of the improvement.)

Doesn't seem like a wise choice, especially since it's only a matter of time that Nic will be implemented, while those losses for EVERYONE mount day after day. The arbitrated list is not nearly as unfair as you easties claim, especially if it had been combined with an industry standard contract. Your egos have gotten in the way of your judgment. But you are free to continue the self inflicted pain of LOA93 as long as you want. Many on the east are losing patience with your King Kleary, and as soon as you lose the LOA93 grievance forces will take hold to right this ship once and for all.

 

[Pi brat]

Unless he's a late 88 hire, that's total BS. Why do you guys feel compelled to just throw utter BS up as fact? Do you not see the connection between lying to everyone, including yourselves, and your plight?

Oh wait a minute...you must mean bottom 737 captain in 2000, right? Got news for you, he/she didn't bring a captain job to the merger.

You are right, I made a WAG and was off by a few % points, at least looking at the Nic. If you look at active west pilots, I think I got pretty close.

The bottom non-EMB east captain in May is Crabill, DCA 33 hired 6/87. Looking at the Nic, the AWA pilot below him was Ajayi P2853. Odell was p3173, so a difference of 320(not exact, since a few p #s were already gone, but not enough to count everyone). Cleardirect said you guys had 1884(I believe that was the number, not looking it up) so Crabill had all but 17% of AWA pilots above him.

 

[Pi brat]

Well actually he was hired in June of 87, holds it on the current bid and has 84% of the West list on top of him via the Nicalou. He is 56 and will only get more senior as the bids roll by and arguably much better off, LOA 93 or otherwise. So PI was only off by 6%, while a small error, it wasn't utter BS.

With 200 less bid positions than at the time of the merger, his advancement is based on attrition despite the shrinkage.

Dang George, If I'd seen your post first it could have saved me a lot of work! Thanks.

 

[Pi brat]

Kirby is unacceptable. Without the eintire pilot group pulling in the same direction, absent a merger with a bunch of cash thrown at the pilots and USAPA's ignorance on Binding Arbitration, Kirby is all you're going to be offered. USAPA doesnt have the teeth to get any better. Doug knows it. The West knows it. Why doesnt the East, besides Pi Brat and Traderjake?



The only thing the East cares about is Date of Hire. They cannot see past that and they are paying to price daily. Sure, you will will get an uprade sooner (what 1 1/2 years) than you would with the NIC. If thats your concern, you should really question your Ego issues. Your upgrade will net you less money than a SWA First Officer. Congrats.



Your contract sucks. Period. Yet the East is too stubborn to do anything the West does. Why? Because the East think they "know" better. Wrong. As Trader said, "Pay Parity would have given the East little incentive to get a contract." He's right. This mess should have been over years ago. In the meantime, it is the East who will never recoup the losses sustained while throwing money at Seham to sell you hope.




The lack of contract is designed by your ill fated USAPA. Cleary and his pets are afraid to put a contract out for a vote. Why? Because they know it would pass. The East pilots will take the money and sell out the AFOs. How has the pay disparity damaged our customer service? The East employees have a rather piss-poor, downtrodden attitude and have done nothing but hurt this or any company. Look around. There is a difference between the downrodden East (agents, counter, ramp, pilots, F/A's) and the relatively happy West. The East is toxic.


Look around Pi, you are supporting those who hurt the company. Explain how it will cost the West more than it has cost the East.


Why does the burden rest on our shoulders? He is managing our expectations at every crew news, and every State of the Airline.



Winner ! Winner ! Chicken Dinner !



As Parker says "its up to you". You can continue on your path of misfortune and despair. Or you can accept Binding Arbitration, which you entered into freely and imporve you lot in life. Again, capturing an upgrade and going from $85 to $125 isnt a lot to brag about.

In the meantime, you choose to live under LOA93 by supporting the clowns at USAPA. You know as well as Cleary that a vote with the NIC would be ratified.


I think they know. They just enjoy pimping you out.


There you go blaming again. Look in the mirror. ALPA is you. USAPA is you. You have the same dysfunctional guys running things with zero ability to succeed. Yet the ignorant East pilot supports them. In your post it seems that you may be seeing the light.

USAPA is giving Parker the rope and you are cheering them on.


USAPA = Free rope today.

I agree with some of what you say. I've had enough back and forth today, but I will say this. I rode in the back of a west A321 the other day, and it was no picnic. As bad an inflight experience as I've ever seen, so the east doesn't have a lock on unhappy/unmotivated.

 

[Pi brat]

The arbitrated list is not nearly as unfair as you easties claim, especially if it had been combined with an industry standard contract. Your egos have gotten in the way of your judgment. But you are free to continue the self inflicted pain of LOA93 as long as you want. Many on the east are losing patience with your King Kleary, and as soon as you lose the LOA93 grievance forces will take hold to right this ship once and for all.

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have a winner! nogo gets it! IF, IF, IF it HAD been! It wasn't and there hasn't been anything near industry standard offered. If we had reached one of those, I think we would be done right now. We didn't and we aren't! Why are those that are not benefiting from delay not beating down USAPA's door?

 

[cleardirect]

usa 320,

Give us a break already, this "news" is so old it qualifies as a history lesson.

Regards,

Bob

What about all of the complaints about ALPA that happened 20 years ago? Oh those are OK but what usapa does is history.

Double standard??????

 

[Pi brat]

And doh nogo, let's apply your logic to USAPA's proposal. If you guys accepted DOH with C&Rs, and IF we could pull together and get an industry average contract, and IF PHX is never shrunk, you guys would be much better off than you are today. Oh wait a minute.......you wouldn't get your windfall! Your F/Os wouldn't overnight step into captain and widebody seats paying much more than they today(seats that they have never and cannot hold today). You wouldn't get the bump in relative position that the Nic gives you as of today and continues to grow until you retire. Never mind, silly me, I thought it was about wisdom and fairness and all the good stuff.