US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

WOW Chippie, that was an eye opening report.

Come on, we know you can do better than that for your ALPA cronies.

I AM SO DISAPPOINTED IN YOU!!!

LMAO.

A guy gets minor scratches from a light scuffle and Chippie here makes it seem like an international incident! Oh, that's right, kind of like all of those UCT's !!

You made my morning laugh, thanks!

Someone is physically assaulted you say no big deal. But someone walking into the PHX crew room that feels intimidated requires a call to 911. That any verbal exchange with a west pilot should be written up and sent to HR. A denial of the jumpseat is a federal crime.

Double standard????

Amazing what you guys will justify with usapa.

 

[Pi brat]

Someone is physically assaulted you say no big deal. But someone walking into the PHX crew room that feels intimidated requires a call to 911. That any verbal exchange with a west pilot should be written up and sent to HR. A denial of the jumpseat is a federal crime.

Double standard????

Amazing what you guys will justify with usapa.

I think this is a big deal. Not as huge as the west posters that will jump on anything negative make it, but a big deal.

I expect my elected leaders to act better than this in the offices that my dues pay for. Shame on you guys. It's no secret that these two don't like each other, but they need to make it work, resign, or take it to a bar that approves of this type thing, then let the law sort it out.

 

[mrbreeze]

Question:

I just joined this forum. Is there something scheduled in court for Wednesday?

thx

 

[aquagreen73s]

And doh nogo, let's apply your logic to USAPA's proposal. If you guys accepted DOH with C&Rs, and IF we could pull together and get an industry average contract, and IF PHX is never shrunk, you guys would be much better off than you are today.

How can you possibly say that? We have fleet minimums and block hour minimums, both of which go away in a joint contract. It would be then that we're exposed under the DOH scheme. Forget it. I'll take the current status quo with you subsidizing the airline. Enjoy LOA93.

 

[doh nogo]

IF, IF, IF it HAD been! It wasn't and there hasn't been anything near industry standard offered.

If ALPA had stayed on the property, and if we would have been allowed to follow through with our contract negotiations that were ongoing and proceeding well, then we WOULD have had a joint contract shortly thereafter. Remember it was the east who walked away, and the east who stopped our contract progress. It was because of the east behavior that the west chose to no longer support pay parity. If not for USAPA we would all be enjoying that new contract for years now. In fact we'd have a unified group looking at the second bite of the apple by now. Just take a look at Delta.

Why are those that are not benefiting from delay not beating down USAPA's door?

Peer pressure and USAPA's tactic of silencing dissension in the ranks. Probably also a bit of east apathy. Finally, the hope of the promised land with LOA93 pay restoration. Once that loser is nailed shut there will be an uprising. At least enough to get a 50+% vote on a new union.

And doh nogo, let's apply your logic to USAPA's proposal.

Absolutely not the same thing. Your DOH and fake C&R's is FAR worse to the west than Nic is to the east. That is a fact no matter how much you guys want to believe otherwise. Nic may not be perfect, but once you look past the ego, and get over the raw numbers, and look at how it ACTUALLY affects people's position, status, and pay the day before and day after the merger, it is pretty close considering what we had to work with. (And yes, Nic did give you 2/3 of the attrition for a very good reason. What he didn't do, and rightfully so, is make us furlough fodder so your side will not bear the brunt of any future downsizing.) Not to mention it was the result of an agreed upon and binding process. It goes back to what I've thought for years. Nic with a decent contract would have passed back then. USAPA knew it and locked out any possibility of putting anything out for a vote. It would certainly pass today since in all probability the 3% margin that USAPA won with has slipped. (Mid term elections always go against the incumbent.) After the LOA93 grievance is lost it is a 99% certainty IMO.

 

[Freebird]

Question:

I just joined this forum. Is there something scheduled in court for Wednesday?

thx

Welcome. Yes there is.

USAirways management is tired of dealing with USAPA and its attepmts to avoid Binding Arbitration which the prior CBA (ALPA) and the East MEC entered into freely.

USAPA inherited all agreements and has subsequently tried (and failed) at imposing a Date of Hire senoirity list upon the West. They put themselves into a DFR (Duty of Fair Representation) lawsuit. They lost in court for failing to protect the interests of the minority (West pilots) who they are trying to harm. The case was appealled by USAPA and was dismissed by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeal on the grounds of ripeness, ONLY. The Merits of the case are strong however.

USAPAs continued or future attempt to impose any senoirity list that hurts the minority (West) in favor of the majority (East) will become "DFR 2" and will be "Unquestionably Ripe" as stated by one of the 3 judges. 2 of the 3 judges dismissed due to ripeness only.

Management is tired of USAPA's antics and has asked the court system for a Declaratory Judgment in the matter of whether of not they (Mgmt) must comply with the 3-party contract that they agreed to. The 3 way agreement between the West, East and managment was that they (mgmt) would agree to accept the Arbitrated senoirity list if it met certain conditions. It passed the test. The "Nicolau" award, through Binding Arbitration was accepted by managment as THE senoirity list.

USAPA has refused to accept the facts and have held all pilots and flight attendants hostage by keeping the wages low and benefits lower. They remain to stay on LOA93 which is a bankruptcy era agreement which hurts every East pilot. They seem to enjoy it. They also blame management and ALPA and anybody who will listen for the failure of their 'union'.

So YES. Wednesday Judge Silver asked all parties involved into her courtroom. After LOA93 arbitration fails to produce snapback wages and keep the East pilots at an industy low and Judge Silver corrects both managment and USAPA for their inability to accept responsibility, USAPA should be a thing of the past.

USAPA = Failing daily and losing steam.

 

[Pi brat]

How can you possibly say that? We have fleet minimums and block hour minimums, both of which go away in a joint contract. It would be then that we're exposed under the DOH scheme. Forget it. I'll take the current status quo with you subsidizing the airline. Enjoy LOA93.

Easy, IF we negotiate them in the new contract, they don't go away. It's funny that you picked THAT out everything that was said.

Enjoy stagnation. I don't really think you are though, you seem very frustrated.

 

[kubotapilot]

Hi Direct,

I didn't mean to imply that what happened is no big deal. If any of you west guys knew of Captn' Chippy and his illustrious history back east you would all understand exactly the gist of my sarcastic post.

Best,

'Bota

Someone is physically assaulted you say no big deal. But someone walking into the PHX crew room that feels intimidated requires a call to 911. That any verbal exchange with a west pilot should be written up and sent to HR. A denial of the jumpseat is a federal crime.

Double standard????

Amazing what you guys will justify with usapa.

 

[nycbusdriver]

So basically you object to beating a dead horse. OK, I can buy that. Now send some PM's and make some posts holding your friends Nos and oldie and few others accountable for the same crime and maybe you would gain some credibility. Until then it's the same old double standard BS form you and the rest of the USAPA lynch mob. Don't dish it if you can't take it.

And by the way, since you asked, we were talking about the east's double standards.

The difference between 767one's argument and yours is that a scab is forever, and the act of scabbing is forever fresh. What USA320 posted was old news because those pilots could have, or may already have, shaken hands and apologized to each other. But USA320 continues to bring it up.

It certainly looks like USA320 and BoingoBoy are great supporters of the west cause. You can have them both. Please, take them. Really. USA320 is legendary over here, for all the wrong reasons. BoingoBoy, for whatever reason, can't seem to get the fact that he is retired and should be out golfing, or fishing, or whatever trips his trigger. (as a retiree, if being on this forum for over 10,000 posts trips his trigger, I feel very sorry for him.)

 

[Pi brat]

If ALPA had stayed on the property, and if we would have been allowed to follow through with our contract negotiations that were ongoing and proceeding well, then we WOULD have had a joint contract shortly thereafter.

Here we go again. You can not say that! I've never met anyone that could actualy see the future. Please give me the date, or even a range that would have happened and what would have been in the new contract. You never know what you will get until it is done and ratified, and that Sir is a FACT. As I've said, by the time Nic came out we had probably already missed the sweet spot for getting a contract, and the added pressure of the Nic may have made getting a joint contract impossible. That veto was there for both sides, remember? We will never know because the majority of east pilots decided to take another avenue. Why do the F/As not have a contract? Is that USAPA's fault? The gave up on being tied to the pilots, what a year ago? But no where near a contract. You bring up DL, but they learned from us and did it vastly differently, so that is apples and oranges. Had Doug thrown money at the situation beforehand, maybe the outcome would have been different, BUT HE DIDN'T AND IT ISN'T! Besides, Doug has told you he will not throw the kind of money at us that DL threw at their pilots because he "can't".

As far as DOH being worse for the west than Nic for the east, that is subjective, it depends on what pilots you use. With some you are right, with some you are wrong. Now if you say that DOH is worse than Nic for the west, I will agree, heck, who couldn't?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Well actually he was hired in June of 87, holds it on the current bid and has 84% of the West list on top of him via the Nicalou. He is 56 and will only get more senior as the bids roll by and arguably much better off, LOA 93 or otherwise. So PI was only off by 6%, while a small error, it wasn't utter BS.

With 200 less bid positions than at the time of the merger, his advancement is based on attrition despite the shrinkage.

And that's the point. At 56 years old, in his DOH position, he will retire as a 757/767 International captain, possibly an A330 captain. Nicolau would keep him seated exactly where he is until 65.

I can't figure out why the west whiners are unable to understand that, yet they can actually fly airplanes!

 

[nycbusdriver]

Now if you say that DOH is worse than Nic for the west, I will agree, heck, who couldn't?

I agree wholeheartedly. But only in the sense that getting a Christmas present from Jolly OLD St. Nic under your tree is better than not getting one.

 

[Pi brat]

It goes back to what I've thought for years. Nic with a decent contract would have passed back then.

As I've said before, you might be right there. The difference in you and me is that I don't believe we would have been, or will be, offered a decent contract from this group without action on our part. We didn't get along well enough pre-Nic, to put that pressure on them and post Nic, with it as section 22, it wasn't going to happen either.

 

[Metroyet]

Here we go again. You can not say that! I've never met anyone that could actualy see the future.

So when the Clerks at the 9th inserted language in the ruling that a Nic. seniority list would "undoubtedly" never be ratified by majority vote, you acknowledge that statement as being ludicrous for the same reason? Nobody can predict the future right?

 

[Pi brat]

So when the Clerks at the 9th inserted language in the ruling that a Nic. seniority list would "undoubtedly" never be ratified by majority vote, you acknowledge that statement as being ludicrous for the same reason? Nobody can predict the future right?

Absolutely. The Nic may very well be ratified in a joint contract someday. I think that day is a long, long way off, but it may happen and I've always said that.