US Pilots Labor Discussion

[OTTER574]

I believe it was changed at UA, for the 500+, wasn't it?

No link pi brat but most know that's what your answer will be....just that....a none answer.

lee seham's wrong view (RLA) proven in a Federal Court of LAW is not the answer in regards to this. You and many usapa supporters have been given the wrong advice.

Doesn't hurt to get a second opinion, does it?

Otter

 

[Pi brat]

No link pi brat but most know that's what your answer will be....just that....a none answer.

lee seham's wrong view (RLA) proven in a Federal Court of LAW is not the answer in regards to this. You and many usapa supporters have been given the wrong advice.

Doesn't hurt to get a second opinion, does it?

Otter

Here ya go:

http://openjurist.org/981/f2d/1524

Not sure it is supporting USAPA, but it looks like a case involving changing a seniority list. I have never claimed to KNOW what the law says ,and I have never said that I KNOW USAPA will win, but don't let that get in your way of a good tirade. A little testy tonight, crack a beer.

Have you guys taken that second opinion advise?

 

[nic4us]

I believe it was a 1 for 1 ratio.

The ALPA Merger Policy does lead to unavoidable arbitration, oh and it's changeable too(again), for UAL to hopefully get the 1000 pilots on furlough something for their 10 years of service.

Maybe you know more than me, but as I recall, it was closer to a 2 for 3. You had 2800, we had 1800, and that ratio would have gotten Odell a little off the bottom with some furlough protection in the event the merger caused downsizing. Seems reasonable. But, that was the opener with Nicolau, not during the original negotiations meetings.

I was told by a member of the West MC, that the very first thing the east said to the West was not we want DOH, it was "okay guys, how many of our furloughs can come in above your pilots?" Our guys were taken back and replied, "how about none", while they said to themselves, lets stick to our offers, make every thing reasonable, when it gets to arbitration it will be the high road that prevails.

Of course it is going to arbitration. Got a better solution? Particularly in cases such as ours, when a negotiated settlement is obviously unobtainable.

 

[OTTER574]

I feel kind of honored, thanks Otter!

Another none answer by pi brat.

I'm glad you feel honored and please feel free to go over notes with al hemenway, vp labor relations lcc prior to the trial. Al has a history of stating what list WAS ACCEPTED UNDER OATH by lcc in regards to the TA.

Otter

 

[cactusboy53]

You guys are so touchy. Where did I call you a rookie?

It's funny that I too have never had any pilot tell me that Nic got it right or that the east pilots are in the wrong. How can that be? I'm sure you do enlighten them, with your completely unbiased assessment!

Everyone has my number? What is that? A threat?

Not touchy Pi, it's just that you have requested to be referred to as "sir", and I in jest asked to not be called "rookie" (that name has been used to describe the AWA pilots on this and other forums).

I guess we could volley back and forth who supports whom. It doesn't matter. The steps through the court system will proceed. The end of this nonsense will eventually come to pass.

No threats. The statement "has your number" was made so as to include USAPA & USAPA supporters. It means that everyone understands exactly what USAPA (and its supporters)are trying to accomplish under the thin veil of "unionism".

We will not be worn down. We will not be bullied. We will not capitulate. We will continue to defend our rights. In the mean time we will live with our contract (which quite frankly isn't that bad right now....considering that yet another window to any contract improvement has been quite nearly shut).

 

[Pi brat]

Not touchy Pi, it's just that you have requested to be referred to as "sir", and I in jest asked to not be called "rookie" (that name has been used to describe the AWA pilots on this and other forums).

I guess we could volley back and forth who supports whom. It doesn't matter. The steps through the court system will proceed. The end of this nonsense will eventually come to pass.

No threats. The statement "has your number" was made so as to include USAPA & USAPA supporters. It means that everyone understands exactly what USAPA (and its supporters)are trying to accomplish under the thin veil of "unionism".

We will not be worn down. We will not be bullied. We will not capitulate. We will continue to defend our rights. In the mean time we will live with our contract (which quite frankly isn't that bad right now....considering that yet another window to any contract improvement has been quite nearly shut).

Ok c.b. that is more clear.

I have never told you not to fight for what you believe is right.

 

[Pi brat]

Another none answer by pi brat.

I'm glad you feel honored and please feel free to go over notes with al hemenway, vp labor relations lcc prior to the trial. Al has a history of stating what list WAS ACCEPTED UNDER OATH by lcc in regards to the TA.

Otter

M


Maybe Otter has cracked a few! Has anyone said the company didn't accept the list?

Talk about non-answers................

 

[nic4us]

Was neither.

Varini was on the Official East Seniority List as he is today.

Quit spouting the 85% staple lie.

Okay, you are right, Varini was on the "Official East Seniority List" and he was Officially highered on 8-20-2004,(where I do not know, probably MDA and never flew a mainline jet) and was Officially furloughed and Officially on the street on the PID, along with over 1700 other east pilots up to and including Coello.

Just for you I will quit spouting the 85% staple fact. Instead, from now on I will make the statement, usapa wishes to staple 85% of the West pilot group below Monda, the last guy on the east list who still had a job.

 

[Pi brat]

Not touchy Pi, it's just that you have requested to be referred to as "sir", and I in jest asked to not be called "rookie" (that name has been used to describe the AWA pilots on this and other forums).

I guess we could volley back and forth who supports whom. It doesn't matter. The steps through the court system will proceed. The end of this nonsense will eventually come to pass.

No threats. The statement "has your number" was made so as to include USAPA & USAPA supporters. It means that everyone understands exactly what USAPA (and its supporters)are trying to accomplish under the thin veil of "unionism".

We will not be worn down. We will not be bullied. We will not capitulate. We will continue to defend our rights. In the mean time we will live with our contract (which quite frankly isn't that bad right now....considering that yet another window to any contract improvement has been quite nearly shut).

Another thing, what 9 out of 10 west pilots miss is that I have said I don't believe DOH is the end all be all, and I think you will have a pretty good case WHEN DFRII is ripe.

 

[No Land Green]

Okay, you are right, Varini was on the "Official East Seniority List" and he was Officially highered on 8-20-2004,(where I do not know, probably MDA and never flew a mainline jet) and was Officially furloughed and Officially on the street on the PID, along with over 1700 other east pilots up to and including Coello.

Just for you I will quit spouting the 85% staple fact. Instead, from now on I will make the statement, usapa wishes to staple 85% of the West pilot group below Monda, the last guy on the east list who still had a job.

MDA was operating on the mainline certificate and had a USAir call sign, so it's highly debatable whether or not Varini was flying a mainline jet. No I was not at MDA.

Stapling only exists with the Nic Award, not in a DOH List. What did you think, we on the East were going to recall the 1700 pilots and furlough the West Pilots as we recalled the East? You backfill with recalls as you retire. LOS not being considered by either side was a HUGE costly mistake for ALPA National, yet they now have changed their merger policy to include LOS. Why is that?

 

[nic4us]

Have you guys taken that second opinion advise?

Oh most definitely.

We had one camp arguing we need to wait for usapa to pass the list at the table. We had another camp saying, well there is a statute of limitations issue, that will certainly be argued if we wait.

So, after hearing the advice we made a decision.

Chose the right course I might add.

 

[OTTER574]

M


Maybe Otter has cracked a few! Has anyone said the company didn't accept the list?

Talk about non-answers................

pi brat, you stated the list can be changed..NO?....I've stated numerous times, try it under lee seham and usapa's illegal scheme and face unquestionable ripe dfr along with the company if they go along.

Otter

 

[No Land Green]

Another thing, what 9 out of 10 west pilots miss is that I have said I don't believe DOH is the end all be all, and I think you will have a pretty good case WHEN DFRII is ripe.

Straight DOH is not the end all be all. However, neither is Nic. The only way I see a successful DFR II is IF the Nic IS the LIST that MUST be used. So far no one has in plain english answered that question.

 

[Pi brat]

pi brat, you stated the list can be changed..NO?....I've stated numerous times, try it under lee seham and usapa's illegal scheme and face unquestionable ripe dfr along with the company if they go along.

Otter

I asked the question Otter. What makes the seniority list different from any other section of the contract? Each section has the potential to harm one group when it helps others. I wondered if it was implied that it will not be changed because we had an agreed upon process to come up with the list, BUT I DO NOT KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!! WE WILL SEE, BUT WE HAVEN'T YET. Clear?

 

[Pi brat]

However, neither is Nic. The only way I see a successful DFR II is IF the Nic IS the LIST that MUST be used. So far no one has in plain english answered that question.

Absolutely. Just because I don't believe DOH is the only way doesn't mean I think Nic came close. The east decided the Nic was too far out of the range. We will see who was right, but as of now, nobody has won.