US Pilots Labor Discussion

[OTTER574]

Tell me Otter, what are the west pilots doing to make "once" come true? You guys have told us over and over that we can't do it without you, you point out that it takes a joint contract to get to DFR II, but I see NOTHING from west guys to get you there. That leads me to believe that you would rather take your chances with Doug's suit. So be it, but what if he runs out through all the courts and fails, what then? Will you then start pushing for a joint contract? Will you then stop telling Doug that USAPA is a joke and you will cross their lines?

And Otter, I have read the TA many times. I do not see where is says that the integrated seniority list will be implemented or never amended. Can you show me where it says that?

Pi Brat,

You might want to review what single class means in regards to what usapa MUST DO.

V1.A section of TA of which lives the NIC.

Except as provided in paragraph B. below, the airline operations of America West
and US Airways, with respect to pilots, shall be merged no later than twelve (12)
months following the later of (i) completion of the integrated pilot seniority list
and (ii) negotiation of the Single Agreement provided that if by that date a single
FAA operating certificate has not been issued, the airline operations, with respect
to pilots, will be merged effective with the first bid period following thirty (30)
days after the issuance of such certificate. The Airline Parties will make every
reasonable effort in good faith to secure a single FAA operating certificate for
America West and US Airways as promptly as practicable. The merger of the
airline operations, with respect to pilots, under this paragraph A. is defined as the
“Operational Pilot Integration.”


Otter

 

[doh nogo]

Wasn't the place for that in the neg./med phase? Once it made it to arbitration wasn't it up to Nic to determine what was fair since the two sides could not agree?

I've heard this line of thinking before. For some reason you guys seem to think that the process means you go all in, and the mediator is supposed to come up with something YOU consider fair. Or split the baby so everyone is unhappy. That's not how it works. Nic did come up with what he thought was fair. Perhaps if you knuckleheads had came up with ideas other than DOH he might have known more what it was you were looking for, and could have added some things that were important to you. Maybe something more about attrition, or a ratio for LOS, or a different way to allocate wide body flying. But that's right... you wanted nothing but DOH. Oh well, he crafted what he saw was fair and explained it in detail in the award. The fact that you didn't agree, and came up with all kinds of reasons why after the fact is irrelevant.

Do you think that the entire negotiation and mediation process goes away once it reaches arbitration? Of course not. If you don't negotiate in good faith and come with nothing but one demand... your way or the highway, the medator is left with nothing to work with. It's not his job to read your mind.

 

[cactusboy53]

Koontz has given his flock false hope, taken their money. Spent their money, hand over fist. Why didn't the West pilots bone up on the Ripeness terminology? There was no ripeness. How can you send Marty Harper off on a mission that would never have one chance of success Didn't Koontz understand Wake was in over his head, far over his head. To the point he had the gall to almost have imposed the Nicolau? The NMB lawyers were boarding the planes with parachutes, ready to drop in and straighten out the courtroom run amok. How do the Leonidas LLC founders continue to get your donations? They have yet to deliver, yet your hard earned money is delivered to the furnace guided by amateur legal advice. Someone needs to ask Ferguson and especially Koontz to show their credentials with regard to NMB and contract issues. Marty Harper is taking them on a fantastic and expensive ride.

Luv;
That's a lot of key strokes to spew your opinion on what the west is spending to defend our legal position. We have not won big, but we have kept you from your DOH land grab.

Keep clicking those ruby shoes, I think there is a pair for all of you.

 

[cactusboy53]

Oh that doesn't sound like an angry F/O! Poor 63 year old west captains and what they must have to put up with.

Not angry Dorothy. I and the commercial aviation world are watching USAPA and its supporters in complete and utter amazement. Leonidas may not have won big, but it has kept you from your DOH land grab (and made Doug & other LCC investors stinkin' rich with the labor savings that you have so generously donated these past 3+ years - since walking away from the joint negotiation table and voting in our illustrious "union").

We stand "unquestionably" firm on principle, integrity, moral, ethical and legal grounds.

 

[OTTER574]

That proves it. You're an idiot.

I now know you'll see with regards to this is all you have oldie.

Giving quotes/statements from the TA of which usapa can not dispute is what I offered.

Name calling is the norm around here and honestly, I don't expect much more from you oldie.

Otter

 

[Pi brat]

Pi Brat,

You might want to review what single class means in regards to what usapa MUST DO.

V1.A section of TA of which lives the NIC.

Except as provided in paragraph B. below, the airline operations of America West
and US Airways, with respect to pilots, shall be merged no later than twelve (12)
months following the later of (i) completion of the integrated pilot seniority list
and (ii) negotiation of the Single Agreement provided that if by that date a single
FAA operating certificate has not been issued, the airline operations, with respect
to pilots, will be merged effective with the first bid period following thirty (30)
days after the issuance of such certificate. The Airline Parties will make every
reasonable effort in good faith to secure a single FAA operating certificate for
America West and US Airways as promptly as practicable. The merger of the
airline operations, with respect to pilots, under this paragraph A. is defined as the
“Operational Pilot Integration.”


Otter

Otter,

Set aside the DFR for a minute. Why doesn't a contract with DOH for section 22 comply with what you list above?

 

[Pi brat]

I've heard this line of thinking before. For some reason you guys seem to think that the process means you go all in, and the mediator is supposed to come up with something YOU consider fair. Or split the baby so everyone is unhappy. That's not how it works. Nic did come up with what he thought was fair. Perhaps if you knuckleheads had came up with ideas other than DOH he might have known more what it was you were looking for, and could have added some things that were important to you. Maybe something more about attrition, or a ratio for LOS, or a different way to allocate wide body flying. But that's right... you wanted nothing but DOH. Oh well, he crafted what he saw was fair and explained it in detail in the award. The fact that you didn't agree, and came up with all kinds of reasons why after the fact is irrelevant.

Do you think that the entire negotiation and mediation process goes away once it reaches arbitration? Of course not. If you don't negotiate in good faith and come with nothing but one demand... your way or the highway, the medator is left with nothing to work with. It's not his job to read your mind.

So you are saying that throughout the process the east never gave Nicolau any indications of what it was trying to protect and after all that time he was so blind that AFTER MEDIATION, he had to come back and get a clue? He didn't probe those areas while in MEDIATION, trying to define each needs/wants? If that's the case he was crazier that I thought.

 

[OTTER574]

That proves it. You're an idiot.

I'm feeling that I can have some fun with you today in regards to the TA, oldie.

What part of my TA shall my CBA renegotiate stated contract with LCC? Please be very clear and how usapa's hired lawyer, lee seham can do this and get the lcc/company to go along with this illegal scheme?

Otter

 

[Pi brat]

Not angry Dorothy. I and the commercial aviation world are watching USAPA and its supporters in complete and utter amazement. Leonidas may not have won big, but it has kept you from your DOH land grab (and made Doug & other LCC investors stinkin' rich with the labor savings that you have so generously donated these past 3+ years - since walking away from the joint negotiation table and voting in our illustrious "union").

We stand "unquestionably" firm on principle, integrity, moral, ethical and legal grounds.

Not a Dorothy, you can just call me Sir.

The whole aviation world huh? You have them on speed dial, the whole world, since you are speaking for them? Does it ever occur to you that in our time in this business we might have some friends at other airlines, and maybe they just don't see it the way you do? Most guys I know that have been around awhile see it that Nic got it wrong and you guys as whining, entitlement snots for not seeing it.

 

[OTTER574]

Otter,

Set aside the DFR for a minute. Why doesn't a contract with DOH for section 22 comply with what you list above?

What LIST was ACCEPTED by the company PI BRAT that met the TA?==NIC. Again reread ALL of the TA. The list has been accepted and is PAST TENSE. NO REDO with corrupt usapa and the malcontents from the east.

Otter

 

[cleardirect]

Richard Kasher MYTHBUSTER!

Sure is. The myth that there are snap backs in LOA 93.

 

[cleardirect]

Tell me something, is the Nic better or worse for the east pilots than the best offer put forth by the west MC?

It is better. Not by a lot but better. Is DOH better or worse for the west than the last offer from the east?

We let a neutral decide. He decided that the east overreached. By a lot.

 

[OTTER574]

Otter,

Set aside the DFR for a minute. Why doesn't a contract with DOH for section 22 comply with what you list above?

I've answered your questions to the best of my ability...Maybe you should've asked the same questions to your former and current CBA prior to entering into a final and binding arbitration?

Otter

 

[cactusboy53]

Not a Dorothy, you can just call me Sir.

The whole aviation world huh? You have them on speed dial, the whole world, since you are speaking for them? Does it ever occur to you that in our time in this business we might have some friends at other airlines, and maybe they just don't see it the way you do? Most guys I know that have been around awhile see it that Nic got it wrong and you guys as whining, entitlement snots for not seeing it.

OK "Sir". My bet is that I am at least as old as you are, but please don't call me "rookie". I am a lifetime commuter, so I ask for rides OAL all of the time. I ride SWA, Skywest, Frontier, United, American, American Eagle, and Republic (to name a few). As I greet the Captain and First Officer, I smile and present my credentials and ask for a ride. Presently I ride on the flight deck about 1/2 of the time (90% over the holidays).

While I don't have the entire aviation world on speed dial, the AWA / AAA seniority matter comes up for discussion EVERY SINGLE TIME. And guess what? I am rarely (if ever) the initiator of this subject. I enlighten the aviators with the thumb nail sketch of what has transpired. I also tell them how great it is to be forced to pay my "union" (or face termination for failure to pay), so that my "union" can use my funds against me (not to mention the FAILED attempt to sue 24+ AWA pilots with RICO accusations).

I have only had ONE (other airline) aviator that asked me if I thought the Nicolau was fair. I responded NO. I said the Number 1 AWA pilot should have been AT LEAST #2 on the list. Instead, he was 518. I then added that this was a legal process that we both agreed to, and as such had to live with the result.

I am not whining. All of the statements above are fact. We will not be bullied. We will not compromise from the recognized seniority list that is in fact THE COMPROMISE. This will finish in court because one side REFUSES to accept a final and binding award, and said group is attempting to dodge that seniority list by using force of number. And speaking of "numbers", everyone has yours.

 

[Pi brat]

OK "Sir". My bet is that I am at least as old as you are, but please don't call me "rookie". I am a lifetime commuter, so I ask for rides OAL all of the time. I ride SWA, Skywest, Frontier, United, American, American Eagle, and Republic (to name a few). As I greet the Captain and First Officer, I smile and present my credentials and ask for a ride. Presently I ride on the flight deck about 1/2 of the time (90% over the holidays).

While I don't have the entire aviation world on speed dial, the AWA / AAA seniority matter comes up for discussion EVERY SINGLE TIME. And guess what? I am rarely (if ever) the initiator of this subject. I enlighten the aviators with the thumb nail sketch of what has transpired. I also tell them how great it is to be forced to pay my "union" (or face termination for failure to pay), so that my "union" can use my funds against me (not to mention the FAILED attempt to sue 24+ AWA pilots with RICO accusations).

I have only had ONE (other airline) aviator that asked me if I thought the Nicolau was fair. I responded NO. I said the Number 1 AWA pilot should have been AT LEAST #2 on the list. Instead, he was 518. I then added that this was a legal process that we both agreed to, and as such had to live with the result.

I am not whining. All of the statements above are fact. We will not be bullied. We will not compromise from the recognized seniority list that is in fact THE COMPROMISE. This will finish in court because one side REFUSES to accept a final and binding award, and said group is attempting to dodge that seniority list by using force of number. And speaking of "numbers", everyone has yours.

You guys are so touchy. Where did I call you a rookie?

It's funny that I too have never had any pilot tell me that Nic got it right or that the east pilots are in the wrong. How can that be? I'm sure you do enlighten them, with your completely unbiased assessment!

Everyone has my number? What is that? A threat?