US Pilots Labor Discussion

[No Land Green]

Both Parker and Kirby have stated numerous times that the company has "accepted the List".

Further, under oath in court, company representation testified that they had accepted the Nic, and had not entertained any ideas of accepting usapa's DOH list, which usapa had indeed already presented at the negotiating table. That got them out of Addington.

Also, Parker has said numerous times that the company has to remain neutral.

Their actions speak louder than their words. The company's request for declaratory judgement is not about delaying a joint contract, as the idiots at usapa keeps spouting off, it is about keeping the company out of the litigation. By filing, they have admitted to the court that they believe they have a legal responsibility to adhere to their contract in the form of the TA.

"accepted the list" is not the same as, "this is the list we have to use". Again, why hasn't Parker come out and stated the latter?

 

[767jetz]

Sorry Jetz you got it wrong again. Prater told us that the ALPA merger policy IS NOT APPLICABLE WHEN IT GOES TO ARBITRATION. If you doubt me just ask others on this board about it. It's those little details you miss that damage your credibility....as well as your motivations!

Wrong again, as usual. Read what I said. Slowly this time. It might help with comprehension. Did I not say that he would consider LOS anywhere between 1% and 99%? Notice the word CONSIDER. The arbitrator can do what he feels is right. Policy counts, but is not the end of the road. Mediation also does follow policy. So before arbitration he tries to get the sides closer to each other within the confines of the policy, in order to avoid arbitration. If both sides have negotiated in good faith he will try his best to close the gap once it reaches the arbitration phase. If one side is completely unreasonable and over reaching, he can abandon it all and do what he thinks is right, as long as it doesn't violate the original policy. There is no responsibility whatsoever to "split the baby," giving each side half of what they wanted. It doesn't work that way.

Have you ever been part of mediation/binding arbitration? I mean actually in the room as one of the parties? I have, outside of aviation. It works exactly the same way. And I assure you it is legally binding.

Please explain to me JETZ, NIC, clear NUTCASE 320 why or why not you would place the number one guy at Airtran number 2 on the combined SW list even though they are seperated by 20-25 years. Your ball!!

I can't predict the outcome of that merger without knowing more details. Each merger turns on it's on circumstances. It will be interesting to read the arbitrator's decision and reasoning, assuming it gets that far. My guess is that SW might throw enough money at it to buy labor peace and avoid the SLI problems all together. I'll bet an Airtran captain, flying as a SW f/o at captain rates isn't going to complain much about having one less stripe. But to answer your question, a person in the top 3% should stay somewhere around the top 3% after the merger, regardless of years. Especially when both carriers fleets are similar narrowbody. It makes it easier since you don't have to adjust for widebody career expectations.

 

[aquagreen73s]

But to answer your question, a person in the top 3% should stay somewhere around the top 3% after the merger, regardless of years. Especially when both carriers fleets are similar narrowbody. It makes it easier since you don't have to adjust for widebody career expectations.

That's where UAL/CAL departs from AAA/AWA. Even after what's happened to UAL over the past ten years, they still have a widebody fleet to die for. AAA brought 9 A330s and 10 old, 767-200s and AAA got the benefit of that by getting the top 517 slots. If we applied Nicolau to a UAL/LCC merger, heck, UAL would get the top 2000 spots or so before the number 1 LCC pilot even got a spot. A330s are less than 777s and 747s. You'd have to go through all the 747 and 777 positions before you got to the A330 equivalent in the UAL inventory, the 767-300. That's how lopsided Nicolau was in favor of widebodies.

 

[nic4us]

"accepted the list" is not the same as, "this is the list we have to use". Again, why hasn't Parker come out and stated the latter?

True. But, it is the same as saying this is the only list we legally recognize.

Because usapa is the CBA. Until a court tells the company that usapa's rights as the CBA outweigh the company's contractual commitments, and usapa's right to violate its DFR to the West pilots are seperated from the company, the company will attempt to remain neutral.

 

[pitchlow]

Sure Southwest gambled big and they won big up through the 2008 oil spike. Then they lost big when oil prices dropped well below their hedged position, though not nearly as big as they won over roughly two decades of hedging. When you have lots of cash to play the hedging market and can do so without risking the airline if you end up paying for bad hedges, then it is certainly a good strategy.

When cash is tight and failures mean the liquidation of the corporate entity when hedges go wrong, it is a very different decision. Southwest leased multiple AC that they previously owned outright to cover the cash deficit caused by the oil plummet. US is not in the same cash-rich position and the BOD is smart enough to weigh the odds and make the decision. It is their money they are choosing to risk or not risk after all. Why not focus on what you can control rather than lobbing flaming arrows at an issue you clearly don't have all the facts on? What pilots can control is dropping the section 22 challenges, accept the NIC and move towards a JCBA.USAPA is the epitome of ineptness and failure so why don’t you focus your contempt on that group of despots instead?

You are correct, we are not in as good of a financial position as SWA. And I am taking a light jab. Here is the short and sweet History of Flaming Arrows. You can weave the labor unrest into this any way you choose but it is misguided. Why does our CEO show up for town hall meetings? I know why, as do most of us. And you do too. Its to dumb down expectation. That's who this guy is. He would be lost if His mandate was to improve quality and profit. He is not capable. He is very capable and willing to squeeze with an affable smile. He is the perfect man for the carcass that has a tenderloin. Its all by design. Wolfe improved quality and He wanted to merge it. Segal was a hired gun to slash and gut it. Lakefield, who I actually respect, was installed to put up the front money for two sub standard Airlines that had more value alive for the institutions on the hook. Kind of like TARP. Where the Tax payers are off the hook but the employees are not. Parker has already achieved his mandate. We are very lean and making money. Does He get credit for that? Yes. Now what? From fuel hedging to Nic? And I thought all along you were making a case for management. You want that tenderloin too, I guess. So once again as always, it comes down to " Hey Pops, get out of my seat".

 

[CallawayGolf]

You are correct, we are not in as good of a financial position as SWA. And I am taking a light jab. Here is the short and sweet History of Flaming Arrows. You can weave the labor unrest into this any way you choose but it is misguided. Why does our CEO show up for town hall meetings? I know why, as do most of us. And you do too. Its to dumb down expectation. That's who this guy is. He would be lost if His mandate was to improve quality and profit. He is not capable. He is very capable and willing to squeeze with an affable smile. He is the perfect man for the carcass that has a tenderloin. Its all by design. Wolfe improved quality and He wanted to merge it. Segal was a hired gun to slash and gut it. Lakefield, who I actually respect, was installed to put up the front money for two sub standard Airlines that had more value alive for the institutions on the hook. Kind of like TARP. Where the Tax payers are off the hook but the employees are not. Parker has already achieved his mandate. We are very lean and making money. Does He get credit for that? Yes. Now what? From fuel hedging to Nic? And I thought all along you were making a case for management. You want that tenderloin too, I guess. So once again as always, it comes down to " Hey Pops, get out of my seat".

All anyone can do – other than Doug – is speculate as to why he conducts crew news, town hall, and state of the airline meetings. My guess is that 1) he thinks executive leaders should be available to as many of the employee population as is reasonably possible, 2) he values the two-way communication where he gets to give his talking points as well as hear what is on the mind of the front line people, 3) he shows that he is not hiding in his office afraid to have tough questions and personal insults hurled his way, and 4) it allows him to get unfiltered information that middle management might prefer to shield him from. I’m sure he likes the challenge of facing the angry mob out for blood and show that he can take the heat whereas most would try to avoid those encounters at all costs. I believe him to be a genuine and honest guy as evidenced by the fact that he can do these events over and over without having to remember all the little lies along the way – that is when you are genuine and tell the truth it is much easier to do a town hall without showing yourself to have intentionally lied in the past. Doug is guilty as anyone who speaks off the cuff of making a incorrect statement, but those are really few and far between when weighed against the number of times he does these events.

Your characterization of Doug still doesn’t match reality. He is the longest-tenured CEO at any major airline by a very long shot – longer than DL, UA, AA, WN which I think about covers it. Contrary to what you posted, he has led the company to tremendous operational achievements as well as sustained financial success. There’s always room to improve, but he has a very impressive track record of success including never being the CEO of a bankrupt hub/spoke airline for more than ten years – which is not something many outside of WN can claim.

I don’t understand the last portion of your post, as I never said to anyone – “Hey pops get out of my seat”. I believe the NIC is fair and legally enforceable, but that is a well-documented position on these boards.

 

[Black Swan]

You've got it wrong. I do want you to have a huge raise, through the proper channels. Your raise exists in the context of a ratified joint contract. The path that leads directly to a contract also leads to NIC. No one wants you to live on LOA93. They want you to follow through with your commitments and finish what you started... binding arbitration and a joint contract. You are living on LOA93 by your own choice. And that is your fault. No one else's.

OK, so the LOA93, which exists, doesn't cut it for you. And the PROPER channel, is the joint contract? Here is how it goes down- Kasher agrees that the east gets the LOA 84 pay rates, plus the 3% plus the next 3%. The 737 and little bus are paying excellent money, not to mention the 767 and 330. The East gets it with retro, and the west gets nothing, nada. That, is the proper channel

 

[Metroyet]

OK, so the LOA93, which exists, doesn't cut it for you. And the PROPER channel, is the joint contract? Here is how it goes down- Kasher agrees that the east gets the LOA 84 pay rates, plus the 3% plus the next 3%. The 737 and little bus are paying excellent money, not to mention the 767 and 330. The East gets it with retro, and the west gets nothing, nada. That, is the proper channel

Delusions, Delusions, Delusions...

 

[crazystnic]

Both Parker and Kirby have stated numerous times that the company has "accepted the List".

Further, under oath in court, company representation testified that they had accepted the Nic, and had not entertained any ideas of accepting usapa's DOH list, which usapa had indeed already presented at the negotiating table. That got them out of Addington.

Also, Parker has said numerous times that the company has to remain neutral.

Their actions speak louder than their words. The company's request for declaratory judgement is not about delaying a joint contract, as the idiots at usapa keeps spouting off, it is about keeping the company out of the litigation. By filing, they have admitted to the court that they believe they have a legal responsibility to adhere to their contract in the form of the TA.

*******************************8

Kirby has also been crystal clear that the list can't be ratified.
there is your problem.

 

[767jetz]

OK, so the LOA93, which exists, doesn't cut it for you. And the PROPER channel, is the joint contract? Here is how it goes down- Kasher agrees that the east gets the LOA 84 pay rates, plus the 3% plus the next 3%. The 737 and little bus are paying excellent money, not to mention the 767 and 330. The East gets it with retro, and the west gets nothing, nada. That, is the proper channel

Or you lose that arbitration (likely scenario) and live with LOA93 until you come to your senses.

I posted the comments you quoted in response to someone saying I want you to keep your low pay and how that brings down the industry standard. I do not. I want you to get your raise through a nic inclusive joint contract.

 

[767jetz]

duplicate post

 

[flypg]

Delusions, Delusions, Delusions...

OK, delusions say you. That is our delusions. You don't even work here. Get lost !

 

[Phoenix]

That's not what Prater said! Show us where he said ALPA merger policy isn't applicable? You can't, and you're lying. The first thing George Nicolau talks about in his opinion is ALPA merger policy. I've attached pages 1-3 of the Nicolau not for your edification, but to show others the boldness the Angry F/O club has when it comes to outright lying, conjuring up facts and misrepresenting anything and everything that does not comport with how the Angry F/Os think.

Oh, oh, oh... Professor...

The NIC is ancient history. I have a copy of the original one written on Papyrus. You ain't got nothing on this antique collector.

P.S. Be on the look out for some fraudsters who claim to have a copy written in cuneiform clay tablets. Its old, but not that old.

 

[prechilill]

OK, so the LOA93, which exists, doesn't cut it for you. And the PROPER channel, is the joint contract? Here is how it goes down- Kasher agrees that the east gets the LOA 84 pay rates, plus the 3% plus the next 3%. The 737 and little bus are paying excellent money, not to mention the 767 and 330. The East gets it with retro, and the west gets nothing, nada. That, is the proper channel

"and everybody lived happily ever after...

The End


Next story- Humpty Dumpty!

 

[flypg]

"and everybody lived happily ever after...

The End


Next story- Humpty Dumpty!

Hey Toots ! Bid results are out...How is your CLT bid ?