US Pilots Labor Discussion

[767jetz]

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, to avoid any more confusion I edited my original post. They are not hedging to the extent they were hedged when speculation quadrupled the price of oil in a matter of months.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I’ll try to respond to the multitude of posts that appeared after I "suggested" that fuel hedging wasn’t Kirby’s decision to make alone. In fact, I believe the fuel department falls under the CFO rather than Kirby/Isom, but I can’t state that as an absolute fact. The point was that the shareholders of US have determined that purchasing fuel and engaging in risky hedging schemes is far too great a decision for one person to bear the burden of alone. This is not unusual as even Doug has limits to the spending authority and risk he can put the company in without BOD approval. It has nothing to do with the competency of the management team, it has to do with the fiduciary responsibility the BOD has to the shareholders in a publically traded company. In the final analysis, any decision that could have such an impact as to risk bankruptcy or liquidation belongs at the BOD level for the protection of the stockholders money and interests. Blaming Kirby for that decision just shows a complete ignorance of the inner workings of the management processes and the policies that legally govern their actions.

My bias is towards the facts and the truth rather than baseless feelings and emotions. It doesn’t matter if I own stock or don’t as that doesn’t change the fact of how the hedging decisions are made. I never called Parker & Kirby the dream team, but the facts indicate that they have been very successful at managing a major airline in what may have been the most tumultuous decade in all of aviation history. That was a decade that included September 11th, the filing of bankruptcy of almost every major airline in the USA, the merger of six of the largest major airlines in the US, fuel spikes to $140+/bb, the worst economic downturn in more than half a century, and a myriad of other challenges associated with having too much industry capacity leading to unsupportable ticket prices that do not cover the operating costs for virtually every carrier – including WN. For most of the decade WN’s profitability was tied to fuel hedging gains rather than operational efficiencies. So, unless you are biased against the truth it is undeniable that Doug and team have successfully managed and proven their mettle in one of the most volatile industries to be found anywhere. And to say that Doug is only polishing up the exterior so that he can make a quick money grab and run is to reject the fact that Doug has been in the CEO chair longer than every other CEO currently serving at a major carrier (far longer in fact). So, if I have the facts wrong, please feel free to make the correction and I will offer my apology. Otherwise you are not traversing in the land of truth and facts and I really can’t help you if you cannot accept the truth.

Employees at US are not subsidizing “management incompetence”. Every employee is working for the wages that were agreed to. Unionized employees are receiving the wages that were negotiated by their CBA and ratified by the membership. Non-contract employees also receive whatever they agreed to be paid for the work they perform. There are only two groups that haven’t reached a new CBA since the merger – the pilots and the FAs. The pilots have been led off-track by an unscrupulous lawyer who earns more money by ensuring that the pilots do not reach a contract than actually getting them to a JCBA. If USAPA were to offer $eham a $4M bonus for achieving a JCBA in 2011, I’ll bet the legal challenges to fighting the NIC award would suddenly change course in favor of just getting the best contract we can rather than worrying about the fallacious harm that is supposed to come the east pilots because of a ratio integration process. And the FAs spent way too much time waiting out $eham, Bradford, & Cleary rather than just negotiating their own JCBA. Now they seem to be fighting each other over the contract rather than presenting a unified set of negotiating points to get this done. There is plenty of inteptitude to blame for the pilots and FAs not having a contract, but that is the fault of ALPA, USAPA, and the AFA, not management.

 

[No Land Green]

And a vast majority of UA/CO pilots will be satisfied with the results and look to the future. Now if you would just clean up the mess you created, my friends on the west, and the majority of east pilots who are sick of USAPA and their lies and broken promises, can move forward with what time they have left in this career.

Have any numbers of "the majority of east pilots who are sick of USAPA"?

I'm curious as to how many, since you infer "majority".

 

[767jetz]

I am sure it will be whatever suits the UAL pilots in the particular scenario.

Not that I agree that UA has the power to unilaterally change anything in ALPA, since changes like that must be agree to by a majority, but it I'm amazed that you don't see the hypocrisy in your statement above. Aren't you the ones who have been claiming all along that majority rules? You can force onto the west whatever suits the east pilots in a particular scenario. In 2000 you wanted to claim your "rightful" position as 747 captains, but Heaven forbid a west pilot flies a 330!

Keep liviing in that dream world of yours. USAPA's days are numbered. Mark my words, the implosion is coming and your DOH dreams will have gone the way of paper bids, the 727, and a regulated airline industry.

 

[luvthe9]

OK, to avoid any more confusion I edited my original post. They are not hedging to the extent they were hedged when speculation quadrupled the price of oil in a matter of months.

It has been common knowledge the rest of the world continue to grow despite the US problems. The problems here were housing related. Bank related. China and India have continued to move forward in leaps. They are buying cars, buying goods, building homes and offices. These all require electricity and commodities. It takes a lot of energy to grow food, make electricity, fuel cars. This was a long time coming, and Team Tempe is apparently the only group to fail to see the early signs of recovery. Recovery means we will all be right back where we were yrs. ago with regard to commodities pricing. Oil included. As usual, when you are geared to selling a company rather than actually running an quality operation, you window dress, and don't put the effort in to make a good operation. The risk is, you get caught with your pants down when you fail to long term plan. Kirby has just laid the cornerstone to a failed 2011 with the lack of fuel hedges.

 

[767jetz]

Have any numbers of "the majority of east pilots who are sick of USAPA"?

I'm curious as to how many, since you infer "majority".

Nope. Don't have a number. But we'll find out soon enough when you lose the LOA93 challenge. Then you will either see a representational election, or a recall to put calmer heads in control. In that case you will see a reconciling with the west along with a Nic inclusive contract. Either way, when there is finally a vote on something we will have a hard and fast number finally.

Alternately, the company will take a stand on the NIC, and USAPA will find a way to save face and blame someone for the inevitable NIC contract. It will go for a vote and again we will have that number.

 

[No Land Green]

Not that I agree that UA has the power to unilaterally change anything in ALPA, since changes like that must be agree to by a majority, but it I'm amazed that you don't see the hypocrisy in your statement above.

hmmmmmm, really now, why did ALPA change the merger policy to include LOS? Could it be because UAL has many pilots on furlough now? Could it be that ALPA is afraid of losing UAL? See there lies the problem, changing the rules. ALPA is just as guilty and reeks of "hypocrisy".

 

[luvthe9]

Nope. Don't have a number. But we'll find out soon enough when you lose the LOA93 challenge. Then you will either see a representational election, or a recall to put calmer heads in control. In that case you will see a reconciling with the west along with a Nic inclusive contract. Either way, when there is finally a vote on something we will have a hard and fast number finally.

Alternately, the company will take a stand on the NIC, and USAPA will find a way to save face and blame someone for the inevitable NIC contract. It will go for a vote and again we will have that number.

Not very smart Jetzz. Your hoping we lose means the bar is lowered. It is all about you though. Pure narcissm. Don't you think a large raise would improve the entire industry and raise the rates for all others? You just don't care, you are that consumed and narcisstic.

 

[No Land Green]

Nope. Don't have a number. But we'll find out soon enough when you lose the LOA93 challenge. Then you will either see a representational election, or a recall to put calmer heads in control. In that case you will see a reconciling with the west along with a Nic inclusive contract. Either way, when there is finally a vote on something we will have a hard and fast number finally.

Alternately, the company will take a stand on the NIC, and USAPA will find a way to save face and blame someone for the inevitable NIC contract. It will go for a vote and again we will have that number.

You continue to amaze me, someone who seems to know so much about the sentiment of the East Pilots. I guess my cockpit's must be in the minority.....LMAO!!!!!!!

 

[767jetz]

It has been common knowledge the rest of the world continue to grow despite the US problems. The problems here were housing related. Bank related. China and India have continued to move forward in leaps. They are buying cars, buying goods, building homes and offices. These all require electricity and commodities. It takes a lot of energy to grow food, make electricity, fuel cars. This was a long time coming, and Team Tempe is apparently the only group to fail to see the early signs of recovery. Recovery means we will all be right back where we were yrs. ago with regard to commodities pricing. Oil included. As usual, when you are geared to selling a company rather than actually running an quality operation, you window dress, and don't put the effort in to make a good operation. The risk is, you get caught with your pants down when you fail to long term plan. Kirby has just laid the cornerstone to a failed 2011 with the lack of fuel hedges.

Don't get me wrong. I don't claim that you have a stellar management team. I also don't claim that fuel hedging is bad. I'm just saying the advantages of hedging are not as great a they were when speculation caused wild fluctuations in oil prices. And they also carry risk. Oil will certainly increase over time, but at a more reasonable and manageable rate. Airlines seem more willing to price their product accordingly to compensate. I think not hedging is not a great idea for US. But I also don't think it will be the single factor in the undoing of the airline. I agree with most of what you say above.

 

[767jetz]

Not very smart Jetzz. Your hoping we lose means the bar is lowered. It is all about you though. Pure narcissm. Don't you think a large raise would improve the entire industry and raise the rates for all others? You just don't care, you are that consumed and narcisstic.

You've got it wrong. I do want you to have a huge raise, through the proper channels. Your raise exists in the context of a ratified joint contract. The path that leads directly to a contract also leads to NIC. No one wants you to live on LOA93. They want you to follow through with your commitments and finish what you started... binding arbitration and a joint contract. You are living on LOA93 by your own choice. And that is your fault. No one else's.

 

[No Land Green]

Not very smart Jetzz. Your hoping we lose means the bar is lowered. It is all about you though. Pure narcissm. Don't you think a large raise would improve the entire industry and raise the rates for all others? You just don't care, you are that consumed and narcisstic.

You see luvthe9, it's because USAPA has challenged the Company on LOA93. If ALPA was pursuing this, it would be the best thing since sliced bread. It's all very transparent.........

 

[No Land Green]

You've got it wrong. I do want you to have a huge raise, through the proper channels. Your raise exists in the context of a ratified joint contract. The path that leads directly to a contract also leads to NIC. No one wants you to live on LOA93. They want you to follow through with your commitments and finish what you started... binding arbitration and a joint contract. You are living on LOA93 by your own choice. And that is your fault. No one else's.

Yeah we know, it's because USAPA is pursuing this. We get your bias and know that if it were ALPA challenging the Company on LOA93, you would be cheering us on..........YAWN.........

 

[767one]

It has been common knowledge the rest of the world continue to grow despite the US problems. The problems here were housing related. Bank related. China and India have continued to move forward in leaps. They are buying cars, buying goods, building homes and offices. These all require electricity and commodities. It takes a lot of energy to grow food, make electricity, fuel cars. This was a long time coming, and Team Tempe is apparently the only group to fail to see the early signs of recovery. Recovery means we will all be right back where we were yrs. ago with regard to commodities pricing. Oil included. As usual, when you are geared to selling a company rather than actually running an quality operation, you window dress, and don't put the effort in to make a good operation. The risk is, you get caught with your pants down when you fail to long term plan. Kirby has just laid the cornerstone to a failed 2011 with the lack of fuel hedges.

Luv,

Your post is right on the money.

Regards,

Bob

 

[CallawayGolf]

It has been common knowledge the rest of the world continue to grow despite the US problems. The problems here were housing related. Bank related. China and India have continued to move forward in leaps. They are buying cars, buying goods, building homes and offices. These all require electricity and commodities. It takes a lot of energy to grow food, make electricity, fuel cars. This was a long time coming, and Team Tempe is apparently the only group to fail to see the early signs of recovery. Recovery means we will all be right back where we were yrs. ago with regard to commodities pricing. Oil included. As usual, when you are geared to selling a company rather than actually running an quality operation, you window dress, and don't put the effort in to make a good operation. The risk is, you get caught with your pants down when you fail to long term plan. Kirby has just laid the cornerstone to a failed 2011 with the lack of fuel hedges.

In my opinion the two greatest factors in the price of oil in the US are the strength or weakness of the US Dollar against all other currencies and the actions of speculators in the futures markets. The dollar has become weaker and weaker as the world recognizes that the US economy cannot be stable with the trillions of dollars in budget deficits and the total debt in trillions the US owes to other nations. If the newly elected house can provide fiscal leadership to reverse these problems, the dollar may gain in strength in 2011. If Obama and Reid continue to call for deficit spending and borrowing trillions more, then the dollar will get weaker. Do you expect US management/BOD to be able to accurately predict the outcome of DC politics? Likewise, should they be able to predict oil futures markets with such precision as to assure that US always has a cost advantage when it comes to fuel? Predicting the future is subject to failure which puts hedging in the high risk category either way you go.

BTW – has there been any statements to prove that Scott Kirby is making all of the hedging decisions or are you just speaking out of ignorance?