US Pilots Labor Discussion

[OTTER574]

Last I heard the BOD was deeply involved in the hedge/no hedge decisions. These are high risk high dollar value decisions that aren't made by Doug, Scott, or any one person. The stockholders view hedging as a highly speculative risk that requires majority agreement rather than just one guy making a best-guess as to what the market will do. There is just as much risk of hedging too high when oil drops as not hedging when it spikes up. All carriers were in a bad position when they were hedged at $120bb and it dropped back into the $60-70bb range. Of course its easy to manage the affairs of a multi-billion business from behind your keyboard at home (where you have no risk of being wrong).

callawaygolf, You're of the belief that airline management 101 will copy and follow doug and scott?

What viable airline would hire your so called airline doug and scott DREAM TEAM?

Otter

 

[767jetz]

I would like to nominate little pathetic mikey for the Low Life Scum AFO of the Year award, right here on U.S.Aviation, for first dragging someone's children into the cesspool, and then wishing others to drop dead.

Let's take a vote... yes or no.

I say YES!

I definitely vote YES!

 

[OTTER574]

US Airways and AWA have been merged for five full fiscal years and three of those years (2006, 2007, & 2010) were the highest recorded profits in the history of the company. The facts reveal that the management team is doing their job very effectively. I don't think you'll find too many on the BOD or among the shareholders (i.e. those who own the airline and who everyone at US actually works for) who disapprove of how Doug, Scott and the rest are performing their jobs. Airlines can win big or lose even bigger when it comes to making a hedging decision since no one can predict the future or completely control the price fluctuations in a volatile commodity market that is as much tied to the value of the USD and speculative investing as it does with actual supply and demand economics. The bottom line is that unless you sit on the BOD you have no idea who to criticize or if they actually made a better decision by not hedging. Of course the truth is much more difficult to deal with than just making stuff up because it makes a good sound bite.

CallG,

What new routes and revenue have your so called doug and scott dream team boys been seeking? Going after to enhance REAL REVENUE to the bottom line of lcc should be a priority. Would you agree, YES or NO? Would the so called BOD agree?

Some are tired of subsidizing their incompetence!

Otter

 

[767one]

CallG,

What new routes and revenue have your so called doug and scott dream team boys been seeking? Going after to enhance REAL REVENUE to the bottom line of lcc should be a priority. Would you agree, YES or NO? Would the so called BOD agree?

Some are tired of subsidizing their incompetence!

Otter

Otter,

Doug and team are doing a good job of lining their pockets at our expense. They are just shining up the apple for sale and when they leave with their pockets full they will more than likely leave this company in worse shape. In the end the employees, customers, and the small shareholders will more than likely get screwed. On time performance is important but I think you and I know that the main reason this management thinks it is important is their big bonuses. Management is doing a good job........for themselves.

Regards,
Bob

 

[767one]

Last I heard the BOD was deeply involved in the hedge/no hedge decisions. These are high risk high dollar value decisions that aren't made by Doug, Scott, or any one person. The stockholders view hedging as a highly speculative risk that requires majority agreement rather than just one guy making a best-guess as to what the market will do. There is just as much risk of hedging too high when oil drops as not hedging when it spikes up. All carriers were in a bad position when they were hedged at $120bb and it dropped back into the $60-70bb range. Of course its easy to manage the affairs of a multi-billion business from behind your keyboard at home (where you have no risk of being wrong).

Calllaway,


How many other airlines "invested" in auction rate securitys? And just how well did that work out?

Regards,
Bob

 

[767one]

US Airways and AWA have been merged for five full fiscal years and three of those years (2006, 2007, & 2010) were the highest recorded profits in the history of the company. The facts reveal that the management team is doing their job very effectively. I don't think you'll find too many on the BOD or among the shareholders (i.e. those who own the airline and who everyone at US actually works for) who disapprove of how Doug, Scott and the rest are performing their jobs. Airlines can win big or lose even bigger when it comes to making a hedging decision since no one can predict the future or completely control the price fluctuations in a volatile commodity market that is as much tied to the value of the USD and speculative investing as it does with actual supply and demand economics. The bottom line is that unless you sit on the BOD you have no idea who to criticize or if they actually made a better decision by not hedging. Of course the truth is much more difficult to deal with than just making stuff up because it makes a good sound bite.

Callaway,

Those highly profitable years were a result of managements realization of the pickpocketing of the employees such as loss of post retirement benefits, reduction in pension contributions, pay, etc,etc,etc. Even with all these things we barely made it through the last few years. This management has failed to recognize the value of a fairly conpensated employee which some airlines (LUV for instance) realize is the most important asset any company has.....IF you are thinking long term viability rather than shine it up sell it and run with the cash.

Regards,

Bob

 

[Black Swan]

The truth finally comes out. So while accusing me of having an axe to grind, the reality is that you are the one obviously holding resentments toward UA. According to you, UA pilots in lockstep with ALPA National are the cause of all your woes. Got it. It all makes sense now.

The truth is your own glass house is full of problems. And you constantly wander into another neighborhood to cause trouble. Problems that your own group started, Look in the mirror, Clean up your own merger first. I suggest dealing with the 70 seat problem you brought on Continental.

 

[Black Swan]

Last I heard the BOD was deeply involved in the hedge/no hedge decisions. These are high risk high dollar value decisions that aren't made by Doug, Scott, or any one person. The stockholders view hedging as a highly speculative risk that requires majority agreement rather than just one guy making a best-guess as to what the market will do. There is just as much risk of hedging too high when oil drops as not hedging when it spikes up. All carriers were in a bad position when they were hedged at $120bb and it dropped back into the $60-70bb range. Of course its easy to manage the affairs of a multi-billion business from behind your keyboard at home (where you have no risk of being wrong).

I suggest they don't even try to think, just do what Southwest does with fuel. Kirby and Parker can't even begin to match the Luv braintrust.

 

[Black Swan]

Oh, I forgot to mention about our fellow brothers and sister pilots at united airlines update on January 7th, 2011. It had interesting explanations about their current merger progress.

Part of united pilots merger committee information distributed lately. ;;;

""As far as US Airways is concerned: Under the ALPA merger policy in effect at the time, the seniority list integration (SLI) process, which does call for binding arbitration if necessary, took place prior to negotiating a new contract. The SLI went to arbitration, but many of the former US Airways pilots were unhappy with the arbitrator's integrated seniority list award, so they successfully decertified ALPA, replacing it with an in-house union, USAPA, with a new union constitution that mandated merger of the seniority lists based on date of hire. The new union re-merged the seniority lists, but before the new consolidated seniority list was presented to US Airways, the America West pilots sued the new union in federal court, alleging breach of the duty of fair representation (DFR) under federal labor law. A jury trial was held in Arizona Federal District Court. The jury held for the America West pilots and against the new union. Notwithstanding the jury trial and verdict, the Ninth Circuit dismissed for "lack of ripeness", holding, in effect, that the case was premature because the former America West pilots had yet to be harmed by the imposition of the new "date-of-hire" seniority list. And so it continues to drag on. Till all this has been resolved in the courts, the US Airways pilots have not been able to negotiate a new contract, and the former America West pilots and the former US Airways pilots continue to operate as separate groups with separate contracts.



As a result of the US Airways SLI, ALPA merger policy was changed to include longevity as one of the factors to be taken into consideration, and SLIs now do not take place till AFTER a new contract has been negotiated to preclude giving up contractual improvements, including pay, for years.""

So now what is the method of du jour for the UAL boys? If the sky is cloudy, it is LOS, if we merge with jet blue it is DOH............Any answers Jetzz? I am sure it will be whatever suits the UAL pilots in the particular scenario.

 

[Ames]

Callaway,

Those highly profitable years were a result of managements realization of the pickpocketing of the employees such as loss of post retirement benefits, reduction in pension contributions, pay, etc,etc,etc. Even with all these things we barely made it through the last few years. This management has failed to recognize the value of a fairly conpensated employee which some airlines (LUV for instance) realize is the most important asset any company has.....IF you are thinking long term viability rather than shine it up sell it and run with the cash.

Regards,

Bob

Doug didn't pick your pocket. You came to him in the condition you were in. Do you honestly think he would even have considered merging, ie acquiring/saving US Airways if you were as richly compensated as you think you should be? Not a chance.

Sure, he's now milking the situation for all it's worth. Why wouldn't he? Our performance is right where it should be. If you guys were so bothered by Doug taking such horrible advantage of you perhaps that wouldn't be so. You have a choice, either take a stand or quit whining. Like we say on the farm, #### or get off the pot.

 

[pitchlow]

Last I heard the BOD was deeply involved in the hedge/no hedge decisions. These are high risk high dollar value decisions that aren't made by Doug, Scott, or any one person. The stockholders view hedging as a highly speculative risk that requires majority agreement rather than just one guy making a best-guess as to what the market will do. There is just as much risk of hedging too high when oil drops as not hedging when it spikes up. All carriers were in a bad position when they were hedged at $120bb and it dropped back into the $60-70bb range. Of course its easy to manage the affairs of a multi-billion business from behind your keyboard at home (where you have no risk of being wrong).

Conventional wisdom says hedging has risk. But the WSJ reported that Southwest has saved 3.5 billion since 2000 on fuel cost. Southwest does many things well and this is just one more example. If you want to benefit from hedging you've got to be right more often than wrong needless to say. Southwest management has both commitment talent and stones. We won't even spend money on respectable Depature/Arrival displays - to much risk!!!

 

[767jetz]

I suggest they don't even try to think, just do what Southwest does with fuel. Kirby and Parker can't even begin to match the Luv braintrust.

Southwest is not hedging to the extent they used to. They got very very lucky during the last run-up on oil prices. The biggest problem for airlines was not the price of oil itself, but how fast those prices skyrocketed due to speculation, and how heavily LUV was hedged in markets where they competed. Now that speculation is mostly out of the oil market, there might be price increases and spikes, but not to the degree of the past.

Stable oil prices allow the airlines to price according to costs. Something they are finally starting to do for the first time. Most tickets are sold far in advance. So a person buys a ticket at a price based on today's realities, and the airline collects revenue based on todays metrics. When they fly in 2 months, if oil prices suddenly spiked from $40/barrel to $120/barrel, that person is flying at a huge loss to the airline. A stable oil market means that the difference in cost from the time the ticket is priced and sold, to the day the travel actually takes place is less divergent.

 

[luvthe9]

Southwest is not hedging either. At least not nearly to the extent they used to. They got very very lucky during the last run-up on oil prices. The biggest problem for airlines was not the price of oil itself, but how fast those prices skyrocketed due to speculation, and how heavily LUV was hedged in markets where they competed. Now that speculation is mostly out of the oil market, there might be price increases and spikes, but not to the degree of the past.

Stable oil prices allow the airlines to price according to costs. Something they are finally starting to do for the first time. Most tickets are sold far in advance. So a person buys a ticket at a price based on today's realities, and the airline collects revenue based on todays metrics. When they fly in 2 months, if oil prices suddenly spiked from $40/barrel to $120/barrel, that person is flying at a huge loss to the airline. A stable oil market means that the difference in cost from the time the ticket is priced and sold, to the day the travel actually takes place is less divergent.

Based on the company's first quarter 2011 fuel hedge position and market prices (as of January 18th), first quarter 2011 economic fuel costs, including fuel taxes, are estimated to be approximately $2.80 per gallon.[13] However, jet fuel costs are increasing steadily and that estimate is expected to go higher. Southwest is hedging and we have idiots in Tempe!!!!

 

[No Land Green]

Southwest is not hedging either. At least not nearly to the extent they used to.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[767jetz]

The truth is your own glass house is full of problems. And you constantly wander into another neighborhood to cause trouble. Problems that your own group started, Look in the mirror, Clean up your own merger first. I suggest dealing with the 70 seat problem you brought on Continental.

Interesting how you consider someone voicing an opinion or supporting those who disagree with you, "causing trouble." I know you would rather live in a world where everyone agrees with you (as evidenced by your groups attempt to force your will on the west), but that's just not how things work. I guess the west and their lawyers are causing trouble for you, in much the same way the police cause trouble for thieves.

As for UA's house full of problems, I never claimed that UA has no problems. Far from it. We lost our pensions just like you. We went through bankruptcy just like you. We are still operating on a bankruptcy contract agreed to with the gun of liquidation pointed at our heads, just like you. We've had crappy management for years, just like you. I was the first to jump for joy when Tilton left and Smisek took over.

What we don't have is infighting. We don't blame the rest of the world for our problems. We don't try to shut people up who don't agree with us. Our internal debates are often diverse, heated, and emotional exchanges, but in the end we pull on the same end of the rope and take responsibility for our actions. All things lacking from the east.

The RJ issue in hindsight was a mistake in the first place when the 50 seaters first showed up. Thank Delta for that one. We had the opportunity to capture that flying, but those elected and in control decide they wanted nothing to do with those small toy airplanes. They were wrong. We removed them in the next election. 70 seaters were agreed to during BK. Thankfully there is a cap. UA can not fly unlimited 70 seaters. I guarantee you that the current number will not increase. Most likely our new contract will provide for a phasing out of those planes, unless they are flown by our pilots. There will also be limits on Air Lingus type deals where UA will need to have metal in the market gain revenue from the venture. (ie: 50% of the flights for 50% of the revenue.) Scope is a huge issue for both the CO and UA pilots. Where you got the idea that UA is soft on scope is beyond me. If anything the door was opened by the senior guys you seem to regard highly, when they were in control, and the BK gun was at our heads. They were the soft one oout of lack of foresight. They wanted to smooth the road until their retirement. (Here's a little factoid about those senior guys. As good as Dubinsky was, he and the senior guys negotiated an extra pay bump for the themselves on the 747 during Contract 2000, above and beyond the gains everyone else got.) The younger generation of UA pilots are in no mood for concessions. We have too many years left to play that game.

Yes the new ALPA merger policy has LOS as one of the criteria for consideration, just like career expectation, no windfalls at the expense of the other side, etc etc. There is no DOH, and LOS is a non specific criteria to be considered. The Arbitrator may take it into account by 1% or 99%. No one knows. The key to success in arbitration is to reach for as much as possible without appearing to over reach. Once you over reach arbitrators generally respond unfavorably. UA's merger committee knows this well and has no intention of over reaching at the negotiating table. Again just a guess, but we will probably see a list configured by relative position in category and class, with some small adjustments to the very top and very bottom of the list for LOS. Furloughs will probably go behind active employees on the PID, there will be no bump and flush, and the biggest adjustment of all will come from the disparity of widebodies. It will probably be in the form of a seniority adjustment like Nicolau did, instead of a fence. But a small short fence may be included. This is all from my crystal ball and reading of the tea leaves. We'll see how close I am when it happens.

You guys got burned by over reaching and not coming up with any better ideas than DOH. I told you years ago that if you had taken NIC and made some adjustments for LOS and actual attrition from the left seat, dropped your demand to put furloughs ahead of active pilots on the PID, while there was still someone to represent the west, you would have had huge pay raises and better quality of life for years by now. What you really should have done was come up with ideas before arbitration. The path of destruction you chose since then is of your own doing. And you are reaping the fruit of what you've sewn now, with endless lawsuits by the company, the west, RICO suits, fist fights among yourselves, anger and attacks on anyone who dares challenge your way of thinking, LOA93 indefinitely, and a miserable existence. You've shown your true colors and no one will want to have anything to do with USAirways. Shine the apple all you want, there won't be any buyers outside of a bankruptcy deal, either for you or the acquiring airline.

Believe me, we are cleaning up our own merger, and you can reserve judgment until you see the final product later this year. If we screw it up and it results in a civil war, then I will be the first to admit it. But from what I am seeing it proceeding very methodically and patiently. And a vast majority of UA/CO pilots will be satisfied with the results and look to the future. Now if you would just clean up the mess you created, my friends on the west, and the majority of east pilots who are sick of USAPA and their lies and broken promises, can move forward with what time they have left in this career.