US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Zone5]

We all know a strike by USAPA is never going to happen for a myriad of reasons so this discussion is purely rhetorical.

The attitude is indeed prevalent. Even those like me who would never scab agree that USAPA's main goal (and raison d'être) is illegitimate and unworthy of support. Many who say they'll break a USAPA strike are just blowing off steam but I'm sure a few would make good on their pledge.

If this revelation somehow affects your view of the West pilots then so be it. The Easties have made a mockery of unionism and integrity so don't act shocked when Westies are willing to do anything and everything to subvert them.

A full blown strike by USAPA is unlikely, however never say never and it does remain a possibility. Management has acknowledged that an effective general strike would likely result in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses and I think they would be loath to take it to that point. If a legal general strike were to transpire, it appears that there would not be the level of support and unity necessary to achieve a rapid and successful outcome, such as that obtained by the Spirit pilots. Even absent a unified pilot group (I don't believe there would be 100% support from the East pilots either) there would still be significant disruption to the schedule in the event of a general strike. I suspect that targeted "Chaos" actions would be a more likely tactic if it came to it.

Like it or not, USAPA is the legally designated bargaining agent for the all the pilots at LCC. To flatly refuse to participate in the union process is, in the least, shortsighted and may in fact turn out to be very harmful in the long run, with respect to a future DFR action.

USAPA may turn out to be a big mistake, when all is said and done. If so, in the mean time they are what we the pilots have to work with, or against if that's what one desires. That's how the process works, until or if they are legally changed either through inside dissent or an outside change of representation vote, they are the eight hundred pound gorilla in the room. Participation is the key, become a member in good standing, VOTE, express your support or disapproval to your representatives. Standing on the outside of the process and pissing and moaning about how things are going will never mean squat. At the end of the day the outcome may still not be to your liking, but at least you will have done all that you individually could have to achieve your goals.

ALPA never did me personally any favors, from the "B" scale to the loss of my pension, I never voted FOR anything they ever "allowed" me to vote on. I've always been a "full pay, to the last day" kind of guy and guess what, I always got voted down by the majority. Be that as it may, I was always a member in good standing and paid every dime of dues regardless.

For those who say "what's the use, I am in the minority", just look at what's happening in CLT with the BPR vote on the new union office location issue. Things can be changed, just not from the outside.

seajay

 

[767jetz]

Like it or not, USAPA is the legally designated bargaining agent for the all the pilots at LCC. To flatly refuse to participate in the union process is, in the least, shortsighted and may in fact turn out to be very harmful in the long run, with respect to a future DFR action.

While I respect your position, and the fact that you participated in your union even when it was called ALPA, and even when you did not agree, the sentiment is lost on a majority of your fellow pilots on this forum. From your own admission of everything passing despite your no vote, it's been a long standing problem on the East side that too many were complacent and uninvolved.

There are far too many double standards on the east. Just like those who claim "the election is over and we must now support our newly elected President," until the guy they didn't like gets elected. Then it changes to "I want him to fail and be a one term President." So your above statement should have applied to the east with regard to the union process that lead to the Nicolau Award. Where was the call to arms by the east to "participate in the union process" and abide by binding arbitration. After all, like it or not ALPA at the time was your legal representative.

USAPA may turn out to be a big mistake, when all is said and done.

Not may... will.

Standing on the outside of the process and pissing and moaning about how things are going will never mean squat. At the end of the day the outcome may still not be to your liking, but at least you will have done all that you individually could have to achieve your goals.

Again, where was this sentiment during the negotiate/mediate/arbitrate phase. I still can't get past the part where the arbitrator practically told your guys what was going to happen if they didn't come back with another proposal, and they thumbed their nose at him saying they were comfortable with their position.

 

[exB717Flyer]

To flatly refuse to participate in the union process is, in the least, shortsighted and may in fact turn out to be very harmful in the long run, with respect to a future DFR action.

The time of non-participation has passed. The vast majority of Westies are Migs. Right now the West has two enemies: management and the East. Until USAPA drops their attempt to replace the arbitrated list with one favoring the East they are our greater enemy. The ball lies in the East's court.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Sorry about the re-post, but I really am curious about whether or not the above comment, supposedly made by a "former America West" Captain to the recent Charlotte Observer article, represents a prevalent attitude among the west pilots or whether it is something of an anomaly. It clearly implies that in the event of release to "self-help" that the west would not participate in a lawful job action.

seajay

That west captain doesn't speak for me, and I think that was an idiotic thing to put out in public. I'm a mig, I was an early west mig. I won't cross a picket line, but I damn sure won't march in one led by this regime. If usapa supporters can do it on their own, more power to them.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

You are making the assumption that anyone would be doing any flying.

When the F/As at AWA threatened a CHOAS strike at the end of their last contract negotiations, the company's response was that it would shut down the airline for the duration of any strike.


And you believe them?

 

[nic4us]

You are making the assumption that anyone would be doing any flying.

When the F/As at AWA threatened a CHOAS strike at the end of their last contract negotiations, the company's response was that it would shut down the airline for the duration of any strike.


And you believe them?

It was a different time and a different airline. Oh, and a different CEO. Was it a bluff? We will never know. Letters were sent to the other employee groups informing us of the companies intentions. Fortunately an 11th hour agreement was reached and no CHAOS ensued.

Would it be feasible to shut down the airline in lieu of a usapa strike. Why not? There would be no reason to keep it running, unless you could get a commitment from around 1500 pilots to not honor the strike and keep eveyone working.

 

[cleardirect]

You are making the assumption that anyone would be doing any flying.

When the F/As at AWA threatened a CHOAS strike at the end of their last contract negotiations, the company's response was that it would shut down the airline for the duration of any strike.


And you believe them?

Did the company have a problem shutting down CLT during a snow storm? Did you watch Parker on CNBC? Shut it down restart it later.

Threaten CHAOS. Shut it down. Savw the money of payroll. Why fly when they can not predict which flights? Or the company knows that the east is so weak that a few flights will not matter.

 

[traderjake]

Get with the program, clown. The Nic is gone. Ain't gonna happen.

You're an idiot. I'm NOT the only one on here that knows that.

You keep saying the Nic is gone and I'm suppose to be the idiot?

The Nic award is the seniority list until it is replaced by another in a ratified contract, if the courts allow it.

I'm Not the only one here that knows that.

Ask your clown lawyer.

 

[Metroyet]

USAPA may turn out to be a big mistake, when all is said and done.

That is 100% Guaranteed!!

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

Threaten CHAOS. Shut it down. Savw the money of payroll. Why fly when they can not predict which flights? Or the company knows that the east is so weak that a few flights will not matter.

Well those "few flights" back East you referring to seem to be the one's that are keeping the lights on.

"East is so weak" - I wouldn't bet on that one.

 

[Phoenix]

You are making the assumption that anyone would be doing any flying.

When the F/As at AWA threatened a CHOAS strike at the end of their last contract negotiations, the company's response was that it would shut down the airline for the duration of any strike.

And you believe them?

Ha, ha!

"Don't threaten us with not coming to work or we'll... we'll... we'll tell you to stay home."

 

[cleardirect]

Well those "few flights" back East you referring to seem to be the one's that are keeping the lights on.

"East is so weak" - I wouldn't bet on that one.

Yes the east is weak. I point to your history.

1700 furloughs, kept flying. BK1 kept flying, BK II kept flying, LOA 93 kept flying, lost your pension kept flying.

Big talk no action. Weak.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

Whats the word some love to use on this forum for a myriad of reasons non of which pertains to it's intended definition???? Oh yeah - SCAB.

Now for the benefit of you that don't know this already:

You don't cross a picket line - You HONOR a picket line. Period

Now if you cross a picket line thereby not honoring it - by definition: YOU ARE A SCAB.

For those of you even contemplating crossing a labor action picket line at this airline I only have this to say to you.
I hope one day you will grow up and realize what an contemptuous ass you were when you made THE decision not to honor a job action by your co-workers. Regardless of you own personal feelings of USAPA, UNIONS or even Flight Attendants - You will regret making that decision the rest of your life, most certainly your career.

Just ask one of these guys or gals

http://193.198.207.6/wiki/file/airline-pilot-scab-list-2004.pdf

If the company decides to shut it down - then that is THEIR decision. We already know the kind of integrity that can be found at CHQ. Our airline would rather shut down than negotiate labor contracts? Priceless.

 

[cleardirect]

Whats the word some love to use on this forum for a myriad of reasons non of which pertains to it's intended definition???? Oh yeah - SCAB.

Now for the benefit of you that don't know this already:

You don't cross a picket line - You HONOR a picket line. Period

Now if you cross a picket line thereby not honoring it - by definition: YOU ARE A SCAB.

For those of you even contemplating crossing a labor action picket line at this airline I only have this to say to you.
I hope one day you will grow up and realize what an contemptuous ass you were when you made THE decision not to honor a job action by your co-workers. Regardless of you own personal feelings of USAPA, UNIONS or even Flight Attendants - You will regret making that decision the rest of your life, most certainly your career.

Just ask one of these guys or gals

http://193.198.207.6/wiki/file/airline-pilot-scab-list-2004.pdf

If the company decides to shut it down - then that is THEIR decision. We already know the kind of integrity that can be found at CHQ. Our airline would rather shut down than negotiate labor contracts? Priceless.

Is there a picket line set up somewhere?

Has a strike vote even been taken?

What about honoring arbitration? Is that optional?

 

[nic4us]

Ha, ha!

"Don't threaten us with not coming to work or we'll... we'll... we'll tell you to stay home."

You missed the point.

If usapa decideds it is going to use self-help, the company will inform the other work groups to stay home.

Also, they will inform the other workgroups, that their new found status of having no paycheck is brought to them courtesy of usapa.

I am pretty certain you have nothing to worry about. The F/A's, dispatchers, mechanics, Station managers, Rampers, Gate agents, ect..are all 100% in line with usapa's attempt at stealing the West pilots seniority, so much so that they would gladly give up a week or two in pay so that some furloughed east recall can scam his way out of binding arbitration.