US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

Guess what the "pattern" will be if Kasher awards you snap backs, ( odds 1: 1 billion)?

Parker will dismantle the East overnight. If you win, you Lose. If you Lose, you Lose.

See a pattern here?

Please tell us how he dismantles the most profitable piece of the equation? We all know this guy is all about selling. The most sensible and easily doable is to dismantle the west. Study up on the change of control provision. I say the one that does not have it is the one most likely to go.

 

[Black Swan]

A west pilot(and I don't believe you are not) hoping the company will not honor an arbitration. Irony.

And fortunately for Marty Harper, he capitalizes on their lack of knowledge all the way to the bank.........

 

[BoeingBoy]

Please tell us how he dismantles the most profitable piece of the equation? We all know this guy is all about selling. The most sensible and easily doable is to dismantle the west. Study up on the change of control provision. I say the one that does not have it is the one most likely to go.

You're not thinking it through...let it sink in. Big raise for east = higher costs for east = less profitable east. Splitting off west = higher CASM for what's left = even less profitable east.

Or

Big raise for east = split off parts of east (shuttle?) = less of the expensive part = lower CASM for remainder of US.

Jim

 

[Reed Richards]

You're not thinking it through...let it sink in. Big raise for east = higher costs for east = less profitable east. Splitting off west = higher CASM for what's left = even less profitable east.

Or

Big raise for east = split off parts of east (shuttle?) = less of the expensive part = lower CASM for remainder of US.

Jim

Always the contrarian. Always the hater of East pilots. "you could easily say":

And I don't think you want to get into the game of guilt by association with the skeletons in the East's closet. After all, I could easily say you refused to correct the injustice done to the Empire and Shuttle pilots, shoot holes in airplanes, run off the runway and into the water at LGA, don't know how to handle windshear, break the nose gear of airplanes, run into other airplanes, are a scab, etc.
Jim

RR

 

[767jetz]

Prior to airplanes flying into buildings we were doing just fine, and AWA was still at the bottom of the industry.

More double standards RR. You guys are on a roll today.

So let me get this straight. You were doing "just fine" when your airline was about to disappear with UAL's impending purchase (for WAY too much money, btw). You had practically no international presence to speak of, most of your pilots would never see the inside of the few 330's you had, and a concessionary contract of parity +1. Fine. That's your collective right. Yet you turn around an chide others for having scabs, when they are the ones who went on strike to the betterment of our profession. You (pl) say things like 'you are part of a group who has scabs' rather than 'you are part of a group who stood shoulder to shoulder against corporate greed and prevailed, with the unfortunate consequence that a very small minority among your ranks are now and forever will be scabs. Then you allow 2 of your USAPA representatives to be scabs from a former life. Double standard, no?

Your group now claims that they are fine with LOA93 poverty wages and will get their raise through "massive attrition" rather than contract improvements. But when AWA was in growth mode and their pilots decided that fast movement up the ladder was their path to higher wages rather than pay rates that might slow their growth, they committed a mortal sin. Double standard again, no?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

More double standards RR. You guys are on a roll today.

So let me get this straight. You were doing "just fine" when your airline was about to disappear with UAL's impending purchase (for WAY too much money, btw). You had practically no international presence to speak of, most of your pilots would never see the inside of the few 330's you had, and a concessionary contract of parity +1. Fine. That's your collective right. Yet you turn around an chide others for having scabs, when they are the ones who went on strike to the betterment of our profession. You (pl) say things like 'you are part of a group who has scabs' rather than 'you are part of a group who stood shoulder to shoulder against corporate greed and prevailed, with the unfortunate consequence that a very small minority among your ranks are now and forever will be scabs. Then you allow 2 of your USAPA representatives to be scabs from a former life. Double standard, no?

Your group now claims that they are fine with LOA93 poverty wages and will get their raise through "massive attrition" rather than contract improvements. But when AWA was in growth mode and their pilots decided that fast movement up the ladder was their path to higher wages rather than pay rates that might slow their growth, they committed a mortal sin. Double standard again, no?

More of blaming the pilots for poor management decisions. The East Pilots idd MORE, MUCH MORE, to keep this airline afloat than ANY OTHER group, including the crappy management that took their golden parachutes and jumped.

ALPA is GONE because they were STUPID. The East Pilots were paying them TOP dollar for good research and advice and got neither. Then, despite the fact that the East Pilots made a MAJOR INVESTMENT in this "dung" bag of an airline they tried to give it all away. That's why they're gone, because they don't represent their pilots like they should.

 

[Reed Richards]

More double standards RR. You guys are on a roll today.

So let me get this straight. You were doing "just fine" when your airline was about to disappear with UAL's impending purchase (for WAY too much money, btw). You had practically no international presence to speak of, most of your pilots would never see the inside of the few 330's you had, and a concessionary contract of parity +1. Fine. That's your collective right. Yet you turn around an chide others for having scabs, when they are the ones who went on strike to the betterment of our profession. You (pl) say things like 'you are part of a group who has scabs' rather than 'you are part of a group who stood shoulder to shoulder against corporate greed and prevailed, with the unfortunate consequence that a very small minority among your ranks are now and forever will be scabs. Then you allow 2 of your USAPA representatives to be scabs from a former life. Double standard, no?

Your group now claims that they are fine with LOA93 poverty wages and will get their raise through "massive attrition" rather than contract improvements. But when AWA was in growth mode and their pilots decided that fast movement up the ladder was their path to higher wages rather than pay rates that might slow their growth, they committed a mortal sin. Double standard again, no?

Only one "representative" is scab worthy. The other pilot in question is a committee head. I personally don't believe he is a scab.

You have me on Parity +1. I also thought it was concessionary. But I was wrong, it eventually put us on par with the highest paid in the industry..unfortunate that the slot machine did not pay out until after..airplanes hit buildings. Just another reason why high wages don’t trump seniority.

I am not and have never been "fine" with LOA 93 wages. But as many have said here hundreds of times, those wages and working conditions are acceptable to me if the only contract choice is one with NIC. I don't believe that is the case. We shall see.

As to "they are the ones that went on strike" I was one of them.

RR

 

[nic4us]

Please tell us how he dismantles the most profitable piece of the equation? We all know this guy is all about selling. The most sensible and easily doable is to dismantle the west. Study up on the change of control provision. I say the one that does not have it is the one most likely to go.

Everyone is giving Parker absolutely no credit here. If usapa wins the LOA93 grievence, Parker will honor Kasher's decision. He will then find a legal, contractual way to move the company past any negative repercussions associated with the decision.

Anybody remember the Hemminway letter? In it, Al claimed the company had the right to impose the east contract on the West, once single carrier status was granted. Using the same logic, the company could impose the West's contract 2004 on the east. Here is the kicker. TA complete! One company, one operating certificate, one seniority list, one contract. Merger complete.

 

[Pi brat]

Everyone is giving Parker absolutely no credit here. If usapa wins the LOA93 grievence, Parker will honor Kasher's decision. He will then find a legal, contractual way to move the company past any negative repercussions associated with the decision.

Anybody remember the Hemminway letter? In it, Al claimed the company had the right to impose the east contract on the West, once single carrier status was granted. Using the same logic, the company could impose the West's contract 2004 on the east. Here is the kicker. TA complete! One company, one operating certificate, one seniority list, one contract. Merger complete.

I've wondered if it will be the thing we don't see coming that will finish this thing, but didn't the Hemmingway letter say the reason they could do that was because US was the surviving carrier? It wouldn't necessarily work in reverse, would it?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Always the contrarian. Always the hater of East pilots. "you could easily say":

RR

And still the double standard. Absolutely clueless but good for a laugh.

Jim

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I've wondered if it will be the thing we don't see coming that will finish this thing, but didn't the Hemmingway letter say the reason they could do that was because US was the surviving carrier? It wouldn't necessarily work in reverse, would it?

It's the successor language in the East contract that is prohibitive.

 

[767jetz]

The East pilots view LOA 93 as incredibly concessionary and as a "temporary" sacrifice and investment in their futures.

You guys are making yourselves easy targets today, with all the contradictions and double speak.

So one day LOA93 is nothing but an ALPA mistake that no one voted for, forced upon you by none other than ALPA National. But today it is hailed as a sacrifice and investment in your future. Which is it? If it's an investment in your future, doesn't ALPA get credit for it? Or is it another bait and switch where USAPA and the east do no wrong, but ALPA is all that is evil and at fault for everything?

Last week someone categorized your pension termination as charity. Another donation to the well being of your airline. But I guess ALPA is at fault for that too, and the east pilots (who never had a strike and never stood up to management in any real way) are blameless victims once again.

You guys love to have it both ways, don't you? What a convenient world you live in.

And if it was truly "temporary" why then the lack of a clear snap back? Could it be it was never intended to be a snap back because everyone knew we lived in a new world of Virgin America's and $100+ pre barrel oil? Could it have been the only way to convince the money men to open their wallets to get our of BK2?

 

[767jetz]

but throwing around the scab word without knowing history is driving the divide wider.

Care to take a guess as to who was the first on this board to start throwing the scab word around? I'll give you a few hints... It wasn't a westie. It was done as a tactic to insight emotion and redirect a conversation away from a losing argument, when the person had nothing constructive to say. The person loves to post useless and irrelevant links. He's been kicked off this board in the past, only to be resurrected by spelling his name backward.

He used the word so often that now others have adopted his tactic of guilt by association to use against your group, and the result? You come here all insulted claiming others are "driving the divide wider." There are two expressions that come to mind that you are probably familiar with. One starts with "sticks and stones." The other has to do with "glass houses."

 

[Black Swan]

Everyone is giving Parker absolutely no credit here. If usapa wins the LOA93 grievence, Parker will honor Kasher's decision. He will then find a legal, contractual way to move the company past any negative repercussions associated with the decision.

Anybody remember the Hemminway letter? In it, Al claimed the company had the right to impose the east contract on the West, once single carrier status was granted. Using the same logic, the company could impose the West's contract 2004 on the east. Here is the kicker. TA complete! One company, one operating certificate, one seniority list, one contract. Merger complete.

Half of your statement is true. He will honor Kasher if it is an east win, because he has to. As far as the west getting it? The east will sue immediately for back wages and vacation if he does. That is a given. But that will not happen because Parker will never give it to the west. He loves the divided house you gave him. It will just be shifted to the other side.

 

[Al Legheny]

Everyone is giving Parker absolutely no credit here. If usapa wins the LOA93 grievence, Parker will honor Kasher's decision. He will then find a legal, contractual way to move the company past any negative repercussions associated with the decision.

Anybody remember the Hemminway letter? In it, Al claimed the company had the right to impose the east contract on the West, once single carrier status was granted. Using the same logic, the company could impose the West's contract 2004 on the east. Here is the kicker. TA complete! One company, one operating certificate, one seniority list, one contract. Merger complete.

Oh ture man of genius. You have cracked the code and busted it wide open. Yes Mr. Parker can do whatever he wants. He can impose a contract, impose a seniority list, he can do what Judge Wake can't.

Pay no attenition to the 1926 Railway Labor Act, pay no attention to the National Mediation Board, who needs em. Management can simply impose what they want, they are not required to negotiate. All those decisions from the Supremem Court are meaningless, Nic4us has it all figured out.

Thank you oh great Nic4us for clearing up all this confusion, you are a true man of genius.