US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

The headcount in the bid packet only counts line flying pilots, not the total on the seniority list. You have to add in all the non-line pilots to get the total number. Remember, the change in retirement age means that people are staying out on medical 5 years longer than they would have if the age hadn't changed.

It's the non-line flying pilots that I don't have numbers for, or at least can't read the files right now. Nic lists 6520 pilots on his list which is the PID date updated to 1/1/07 (removed those that retired in the intervening year+). After the update West had 1800+ pilots and East had 3005. Again, those include all pilots on the seniority list, not active line pilots. IIRC, East had around 300 out on medical about th 1/1/2007 (that was shortly after I retired) and that number would have grown, especially after the retirement age changed.

I can understand your argument about fleet changes that were agreed to before the PID but not accomplished until after the PID. However, the East has no problem justifying why the 190's, 332's, and 757's acquired after the PID are theirs. May 19, 2005 wasn't the last day the two airlines were separate, BTW. It is the date that it was pretty certain that there would be a merger, thus the date the merger policy was applied. The last day there were two completely separate was Sept 20-something 2005.

Jim

I understand that the bid announcement doesn't include the other pilots, but doesn't it kind of distill the numbers down to how many pilots we actually have doing the work? We have a massive number of pilots on the books that I don't think will ever come back, especially the dead guy that was on the Nic list.

One thing you and most west guys forget is that even though I might argue the reasoning of some posts, it doesn't mean that I think the other POV is the only way to do things.

 

[nic4us]

Here we go again. You obviously do not understand what the 9th said. If they tell everybody that the Nic does not have to be in it as we quoted, and will quote again, how do you keep going up against them over and over? They, are the FINAL decision.

Swan, what you quoted does not say usapa does not have to use the Nic.

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3


You are reading "not the Nicolau award" and saying the 9th ruled usapa does not have to use it. That is not what they said.

They are talking about ripeness, and offering the future circumstances that could happen to cause the West to not sue and making Addington moot.

Very simple really. I agree with them. If usapa can come up with something that "does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau award", usapa will not be sued.

Problem is Seeham, Cleary, Theur, James (CAL Scab) Ray, and Black Swan all read that paragraph and say, "see, right there, 9th said, not Nic, not Nic, we win, we don't have to use Nic". So usapa continues down the DOH path that leads to the company DJ telling the company, use anything other than the Nic, and the West pilots are going to sue the viability out of LCC.

 

[Black Swan]

Swan, what you quoted does not say usapa does not have to use the Nic.

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3


You are reading "not the Nicolau award" and saying the 9th ruled usapa does not have to use it. That is not what they said.

They are talking about ripeness, and offering the future circumstances that could happen to cause the West to not sue and making Addington moot.

Very simple really. I agree with them. If usapa can come up with something that "does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau award", usapa will not be sued.

Problem is Seeham, Cleary, Theur, James (CAL Scab) Ray, and Black Swan all read that paragraph and say, "see, right there, 9th said, not Nic, not Nic, we win, we don't have to use Nic". So usapa continues down the DOH path that leads to the company DJ telling the company, use anything other than the Nic, and the West pilots are going to sue the viability out of LCC.

3. We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the
Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was
its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the
Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA,
is binding on USAPA. See Diss op. at 8021-22.

 

[OTTER574]

YOU don't know what YOU are talking about.

This is NOT about contract law, it's about the RLA, and YOU DON'T GET IT.

Yup, YOUR dues are paying Seham and the BPR for a contract with seniority based on DOH with C&R, get used to it.

Oldie, I DO GET IT. Thanks for your NONE answer as always. Yes my dues pay for a cba of which said cba (usapa) must follow my contract to the LETTER. This latest addition/version of my contract is called the TA.

RLA does not and will never supersede CONTRACT LAW of which pilots of aaa and awa and lcc entered into. If so, it would be quite easy for a group of malcontent furloughed east pilots along with arrogant/angry east pilots to form a new union to escape from a negotiated, mediated and arbitrated FINAL AND BINDING ARBITRATION better known as the George Nicolau Award.

BTW, this award as been accepted by lcc of which we both work for.

Yup oldie, you east pilots keep forgetting that the company sits across from the table as well as you representing ME and all US Airways pilots in front of the NMB.

Continue down this path Oldie because the NMB will park usapa and it's incompetent malcontents and I hope known too soon big guy.

Otter

 

[Pi brat]

Hey prechilwhatever!!!!!!!!!!!! To use Jim's term, tic tock, i'm waiting to hear how you came to the conclusion that our seniority list has gained 700 numbers. Is that what you claimed, I don't want to go back and look.

I found the bid announcement for 05-03 that was published on May 16th 2005. I will be the first to say that my estimate was high, but I will wait for you answer to post the total active east pilots pilots on that bid vs. today, since you are all into accuracy and everything.

Looking forward to you reply, hugs and kisses!

 

[Pi brat]

Anyone know how many MDA pilots there were when it was sold off?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Oldie, I DO GET IT. Thanks for your NONE answer as always. Yes my dues pay for a cba of which said cba (usapa) must follow my contract to the LETTER. This latest addition/version of my contract is called the TA.

RLA does not and will never supersede CONTRACT LAW of which pilots of aaa and awa and lcc entered into. If so, it would be quite easy for a group of malcontent furloughed east pilots along with arrogant/angry east pilots to form a new union to escape from a negotiated, mediated and arbitrated FINAL AND BINDING ARBITRATION better known as the George Nicolau Award.

BTW, this award as been accepted by lcc of which we both work for.

Yup oldie, you east pilots keep forgetting that the company sits across from the table as well as you representing ME and all US Airways pilots in front of the NMB.

Continue down this path Oldie because the NMB will park usapa and it's incompetent malcontents and I hope known too soon big guy.

Otter

You DO know, I hope, that the company and USAPA can change the TA? Yup, that's part of being the "Bargaining Unit", to use Doug's own terminology.

The Nic is a product of the OLD "bargaining unit". It's not in the game any more. Just wait and see.

It's been spelled out to you guys over and over again. You keep making stupid points and drivelling about "contract law" and YOUR contract being the TA. What a bunch of stupid, misinformed CRAP. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT.

Now, go back and pay your dues like the east guys have done.

 

[nic4us]

I conjunction with my question about when a joint contract would have been signed I believe I asked you how many pilots we had then vs. now. Let's just save us some time and say I didn't. Now, for your assumption that the 700 pilots on the east below Monda must be growth, did it occur to you that quite a few guys ahead of him left since May 19, 2005?

I did not say the 700 were growth. I just offered where the 700 number may have come from.

I know that east is near fleet min and the West is there already. So neither side is going thru any large growth spurts.

However, what has happened since the merger is the addition of the 25 (now 15) 190s to the east fleet. Also, a block hour transfer from the West to east, for which the company lost the TA-10 grievence. Addition of 8 330-300 aircraft that have a higher staffing formula than the other fleets, and a higher pay rate. Addition of the ATA 757s to the east fleet. Delivery of IAE powered Airbuses to the east fleet (which I am pretty sure was not how AAA ordered any 320s).

These are all merger related bussiness decisions the company made, no big deal. The work of making LCC a viable company had to start with fixing the east. It took two years and we got all the east furloughs who wanted it their job back. Now usapa supporters are dumping on the West pilots, and reneging on a deal we had with each other.

PS. there are a lot of "dead guys" on the Nic. Do the PHL and CLT crewrooms have the electronic memorial photo frame?

 

[prechilill]

Approximately 500-700 east pilots who were either 1.) furloughed, LTD, not working prior to the PID or 2.) hired off the street subsequent to the PID have worked for LCC thanks to Doug Parker. For the west, we got a hundred and something furloughs since the PID.

 

[nic4us]

3. We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the
Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was
its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the
Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA,
is binding on USAPA. See Diss op. at 8021-22.

So let me guess, you read this and say, see right there it says "usapa is free to abandon the Nicolau award"?

I highlighted the good parts for you Swan.

The question is "thorny" (problematic for usapa) but they tell you upfront, they are not going to address it.

Also, they tell you the dissent ( the judge that did rule considering merits) considers the Nicolau award as binding on usapa.

 

[OTTER574]

You DO know, I hope, that the company and USAPA can change the TA? Yup, that's part of being the "Bargaining Unit", to use Doug's own terminology.

The Nic is a product of the OLD "bargaining unit". It's not in the game any more. Just wait and see.

It's been spelled out to you guys over and over again. You keep making stupid points and drivelling about "contract law" and YOUR contract being the TA. What a bunch of stupid, misinformed CRAP. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT.

Now, go back and pay your dues like the east guys have done.

I LIKE WHEN you CAPITALIZE................I KNOW..........MAKES YOUR true POINT TO THIS, oldie.

Oldie...You just answered my question again. Who represents the west? Answer is, usapa does. How many of the OLD "bargaining unit" contracts do you work under and must comply with? Answer is many...of which the TA is governing in this case.

Show me where the NIC award was ever on trial? Answer is never and never will be. It is the legal list of all US Airways pilots that has been accepted by lcc.

I remember a DFR trial against usapa that was dismissed for lack of RIPENESS by the 9th. That appeal was never ruled on the MERITS of stated DFR case against usapa.

That "unquestionable ripe" thing comes up again oldie and by all means change my TA. You and usapa/lee seham will walk hand and hand with the lcc corporation in BREAKING FEDERAL LAW and pay hundreds of millions of dollars in damages to the west class along with working under a commuter/bankrupt contract called loa93.

Otter

 

[Pi brat]

Approximately 500-700 east pilots who were either 1.) furloughed, LTD, not working prior to the PID or 2.) hired off the street subsequent to the PID have worked for LCC thanks to Doug Parker. For the west, we got a hundred and something furloughs since the PID.

Thanks for answering.

Here is what you posted on page 751:

“Exactly. What USAPA's C & Rs forget about is any growth flying, a benefit the east has been enjoying tremendously since day one of the merger. Look at their seniority list, how much has it grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers!”

“Growth”, “how much it has grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers”-your words.

Bid announcement for bid 05-03 shows total active pilots on June 2005 at 2782. That doesn’t include any EMB-190 positions or the MDA pilots that were flying EMB-170s under the US Airways certificate. All pilots on 737 or larger(and better paid) positions.

For our March bid the total active positions were………………………………………………………………………2592, and that included 173 low paid EMB-190 positions that replaced retired 737, 757, and A320s.

So, after the addition of so called “growth” A330-200s, EMB-190s, and those wonderful IAE A321s, we have 190 LESS active pilots and 173 of what we have left even more underpaid than the rest of us.

If you consider this growth, many other thoughts become clear.

 

[nic4us]

You DO know, I hope, that the company and USAPA can change the TA? Yup, that's part of being the "Bargaining Unit", to use Doug's own terminology.

The Nic is a product of the OLD "bargaining unit". It's not in the game any more. Just wait and see.

It's been spelled out to you guys over and over again. You keep making stupid points and drivelling about "contract law" and YOUR contract being the TA. What a bunch of stupid, misinformed CRAP. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT.

Now, go back and pay your dues like the east guys have done.

Then go ahead and change it. Make sure usapa represents the third signator of the TA, the West pilots, in a manner that will not violate its DFR to us.

The Nic is a product of final and binding arbitration entered into between the pilots of AAA and the pilots of AWA, as represented by ALPA. Now the Nic is the product of final and binding arbitration entered into by the pilots of AAA and the pilots of AWA, as represented by usapa. Or in the case of the pilots of AWA, as Failed to be represented by usapa, but we are still in the game.

Get it? Duty of Fair REPRESENTATION.

usapa can't change jack. Least of which is the Nic, hear is what the 9th states, "The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the
Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA".

I am really catching on to this cut and paste stuff.

"go back and pay dues"? Like usapa dues? hahahahah......

 

[RSVP767]

Approximately 500-700 east pilots who were either 1.) furloughed, LTD, not working prior to the PID or 2.) hired off the street subsequent to the PID have worked for LCC thanks to Doug Parker. For the west, we got a hundred and something furloughs since the PID.

What was it Fruend said? .........all the risk lies with the West? Yeah, I think that was it.

 

[Crzipilot]

Facts and numbers kinda hurt????

As was happening before '05. East being paired down to fit in the West......