US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Then go ahead and change it. Make sure usapa represents the third signator of the TA, the West pilots, in a manner that will not violate its DFR to us.

The Nic is a product of final and binding arbitration entered into between the pilots of AAA and the pilots of AWA, as represented by ALPA. Now the Nic is the product of final and binding arbitration entered into by the pilots of AAA and the pilots of AWA, as represented by usapa. Or in the case of the pilots of AWA, as Failed to be represented by usapa, but we are still in the game.

Get it? Duty of Fair REPRESENTATION.

usapa can't change jack. Least of which is the Nic, hear is what the 9th states, "The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the
Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA".

I am really catching on to this cut and paste stuff.

"go back and pay dues"? Like usapa dues? hahahahah......

Serious question, not a jab, or bait. Do you feel that USAPA has the right to change section 22 at all? If they produced a list that put all west pilots on top, would that violate the west pilot's DFR because it wasn't the Nic?

 

[RSVP767]

Approximately 500-700 east pilots who were either 1.) furloughed, LTD, not working prior to the PID or 2.) hired off the street subsequent to the PID have worked for LCC thanks to Doug Parker. For the west, we got a hundred and something furloughs since the PID.

And you ain't seen nothin' yet!

 

[OTTER574]

You DO know, I hope, that the company and USAPA can change the TA? Yup, that's part of being the "Bargaining Unit", to use Doug's own terminology.

The Nic is a product of the OLD "bargaining unit". It's not in the game any more. Just wait and see.

It's been spelled out to you guys over and over again. You keep making stupid points and drivelling about "contract law" and YOUR contract being the TA. What a bunch of stupid, misinformed CRAP. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT.

Now, go back and pay your dues like the east guys have done.

Yup, you do know that the NMB will park usapa if the company does not got along with usapa's ILLEGAL request for section 22?

I guess my drivelling about "contract law" and YOUR contract being the TA. What a bunch of stupid, misinformed CRAP. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT. flying via a block hour arbitration win (TA 10) against the company is just that. phl and clt is better known as the phx east domiciles now............

Otter

 

[RSVP767]

Also, they tell you the dissent ( the judge that did rule considering merits) considers the Nicolau award as binding on usapa.

As I read that portion it was as if they left out one key word.......'erroneously'.....i.e.; erroneously assume.

It seems like that is what they we're trying to imply.

 

[Ames]

Here we go again. You obviously do not understand what the 9th said. If they tell everybody that the Nic does not have to be in it as we quoted, and will quote again, how do you keep going up against them over and over? They, are the FINAL decision.

You have it all wrong. Arbitrator Nicolau made the FINAL (and binding) decision. You'll see.

 

[nic4us]

What was it Fruend said? .........all the risk lies with the West? Yeah, I think that was it.

No what Freund said was usapa was committing an unlawful act in its attempt to change the seniority list.

He further warned usapa that the West pilots would bring suit, asked for litigation holds of all usapa e-mails and correspondence.

Where do you think we got all the smoking guns that are going to put the reneging scumbags in their rightful place?

 

[Ames]

Based on your absolute lack of understanding of what a bargaining agent means, and especially what the 9th said, clearly- I take that as meaning we have a heck of a lot better chance than you have any idea of. Your anger and closemindedness on the 9th is especially telling. It is right in your face, yet you continue to disregard it. I am really getting the badge backers more and more. It is absolutely astonishing it can be right in front of your faces what the 9th said, and you re- write it. You guys have a good night.

Based on your absolute lack of understanding of what BINDING ARBITRATION means, and especially what NICOLAU said, clearly- I take that as meaning we have a heck of a lot better chance than you. Your anger and closedmindedness on the NICOLAU is especially telling. It is right in your face yet you continue to disregard it. It is absolutely astonishing it can be right in front of your faces what NICOLAU said, and you rewrite it.

Oh, the irony......

 

[Pi brat]

Yup, you do know that the NMB will park usapa if the company does not got along with usapa's ILLEGAL request for section 22?

I guess my drivelling about "contract law" and YOUR contract being the TA. What a bunch of stupid, misinformed CRAP. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT. flying via a block hour arbitration win (TA 10) against the company is just that. phl and clt is better known as the phx east domiciles now............

Otter

I don't know much about labor law-the NMB will decide that an attempt to change the Nic is illegal? Why are we going through the courts then?

 

[Phoenix]

So let me guess, you read this and say, see right there it says "usapa is free to abandon the Nicolau award"?

I highlighted the good parts for you Swan.

The question is "thorny" (problematic for usapa) but they tell you upfront, they are not going to address it.

Also, they tell you the dissent ( the judge that did rule considering merits) considers the Nicolau award as binding on usapa.

No they didn't tell us what the dissent ruled...

They spanked the Dissent for implicitly assuming something that the Majority flatly rejected, and took the time to make a point of saying so.


D i s s e n t i n g .... the one that isn't worth even as much as the case of Charmin that you get as a consolation prize on the Price is Right. The fact that the Majority Opinion chose to even mention the failed rationale of the Dissent means that they took extra care to comment on something they didn't have to.. CLUE: It wasn't a tip of the hat to say the Dissent might have a point... it was a polite way of pointing out the specific logical fallacy that led the Dissent down the path of error to a failed conclusion.

It was a polite public spanking.

 

[Black Swan]

You have it all wrong. Arbitrator Nicolau made the FINAL (and binding) decision. You'll see.

Here we go again, FROM THE 9th COURT OF APPEALS SAN FRANCISCO>>>>>>>>>>>>By the way, what color will really work for you guys, cause you don't seem to get the red....
"Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3"
Does this answer it for you? "even if that proposal is NOT the Nicolau Award..." So if it is so final and binding, why does the ruling entity, the 9th say it isn't? Because it ISN'T!(that is unless you are a west pilot, then you can say whatever you want. And lets not forget Boeing Boy and Jetzz. They like to overturn the 9th all the time on their own too......

 

[Pi brat]

Let's see, 8:48 eastern, 6:48 in PHX(or is it 5:48, never can keep that straight). Supper is over, dishes should be done...............incoming!

 

[OTTER574]

I don't know much about labor law-the NMB will decide that an attempt to change the Nic is illegal? Why are we going through the courts then?

pi brat, please explain what a NMB mediator will discuss in regards with usapa and the company at such negotiations regarding section 22 within my contract?

Please don't dwell too long on the TA, since oldie thinks it's doesn't exist.

Why are we going through the courts then? Because uspsa failed in it's DFR to represent the west class when it agreed to be our CBA of which by FEDERAL LAW they MUST honor all our/my contracts of which the TA and NIC is included.

If west or east pilots are members or not, have absolutely no bearing in this within FEDERAL LAW.

My FUNDED legal team will make sure of this.

Otter

 

[Black Swan]

Let's see, 8:48 eastern, 6:48 in PHX(or is it 5:48, never can keep that straight). Supper is over, dishes should be done...............incoming!

Let s see, 8:50 eastern, 6:50 PHX, delay a half hr. for the Simpsons, and maybe another for Family Guy, ...............incoming!

 

[nic4us]

Serious question, not a jab, or bait. Do you feel that USAPA has the right to change section 22 at all? If they produced a list that put all west pilots on top, would that violate the west pilot's DFR because it wasn't the Nic?

Technically, I really do not know, but, I suppose usapa can change section 22. However, because of the TA and the Nic, they have to get the West to go along with it. That is what I read in the 9ths, "harm Plaintiffs fear" and "unquestionably ripe DFR" comments.

Practically, no. The West is not going along, and if they changed it to put all the West pilots on top, the east would have a DFR because they did not use the Nic.

The Nic is the measuring stick by which any re-ordering of seniority will be compared. Of course RR and Swan and the like will argue that as long as there is a "wide range of reasonableness", it is a done deal. But think about that for a minute. How the heck can it be argued that it is "reasonable", even within a wide range, to unilaterally impose a new method, by striping the representation of a minority group that entered into final and binding arbitration, so that the other discontent group can ignore their commitments to that minority group and arbitration, and at the same time end up with a list that disadvantages that same minority.

So, in your hypothetical of putting the West pilots on top, does that violate the West's DFR. If it is done by usapa unilaterally, without West representation, as part of a scheme of reneging on the arbitration, it certainly does. But, usapa would not get sued by the West for doing it.

 

[cleardirect]

You DO know, I hope, that the company and USAPA can change the TA? Yup, that's part of being the "Bargaining Unit", to use Doug's own terminology.

The Nic is a product of the OLD "bargaining unit". It's not in the game any more. Just wait and see.

It's been spelled out to you guys over and over again. You keep making stupid points and drivelling about "contract law" and YOUR contract being the TA. What a bunch of stupid, misinformed CRAP. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT.

Now, go back and pay your dues like the east guys have done.

At least you mentioned the company this time. They are on the other side of this deal. If usapa is so bad and bad why have you not changed the T/A?

What do you think Parker would want in return for your little change? Min. block hours maybe. Care to give up east min fleet?

A T/A modifies a contract. Just like an LOA modifies a contract. You guys should know all about that right. LOA 93. The worst contract in the industry.

The T/A says we will use the ALPA method of seniority integration. It has not be changed by the parties. You say it can be, make a move. so far usapa had not be able to negotiate much of anything. Let alone a huge deal like screwing the west.