US Pilots Labor Discussion

[doh nogo]

Nope. He's riding that NADSAQ stock called DOH all the way to zero.

He sure is on an anger rant tonight, isn't he?

Nos, better renew those meds. You're coming apart at the seams.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Well PHx is your career expectation is it not, it surely isn't a 330 or 767 job in PHL!

The announcement of the merger agreement changed everyone's career expectation. Besides, USAPA hasn't offered anything that truly protects the PHX flying for West pilots - it just pays lip service to the C&R's in hope of passing the DFR test while really giving no protection to the West Pilots. I suspect that you need a lot more letters in front of your "MM" before you'll understand that, however.

Jim

 

[luvthe9]

The announcement of the merger agreement changed everyone's career expectation. Besides, USAPA hasn't offered anything that truly protects the PHX flying for West pilots - Jim

Yea, there flying has only increased by over 25% , not to shabby. I'd say that's a windfall.

 

[Barrister]

I can certainly understand why you're scared...I'd be scared if I read the 9th's ruling they way you do - missing everything but a snippet here and there. Just look at the qualifier the 9th put on that "doesn't have to contain the Nic" that you and most every other USAPA supporter take to mean USAPA can do pretty much what it wants. Or what the 9th said USAPA had to do if it didn't want the "pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR". While the 9th didn't rule on the merits of DFR 1, they definitely gave USAPA some strong hints of what it needed to do in order to not lose DFR 2.

Since seniority (not longevity) integration is a zero sum game, moving East pilots up the combined seniority (not longevity) list means moving West pilots down that list - taking seniority (not longevity) from the West and giving it to the East. Remember, there have been pilot integrations using relative position on equipment/seat as well as DOH - neither is an ironclad DFR blocker. If USAPA ignores the Nic and uses DOH with minor C&R's it absolutely doesn't mean that USAPA is off the hook.

Jim

Dude, you missed the target again....we ain't the ones who are scared.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[nic4us]

OK, I will. This case has little or nothing to do with the situation at LCC. USAPA IS representing BOTH pilot groups, as reflected by the addition of C&Rs, and DOH has been shown to be a fair method of seniority integration. The west was offered positions on the merger committee to build the C&Rs and flat out refused to participate. USAPA won't be held responsible for the childish behavior of the west side.

The fact of the matter is that there were West volunteers, who usapa quickly declined to allow to participate.

So keep the lies in check there Oldie.

Also, true representation from usapa to the West pilots would demand use of the Nic, or allow for further negotiations with a West contingent that was equally enpowered as their east counterpart. But, that is not the plan with usapa. The plan is to outright steal the West seniority to favor the east majority. Part of the plan was to also steal the West representation to further that agenda.

Further, none of what usapa is doing will pass the smell test. The Nic (ratioed integration) has also been shown to be a fair method of integration, and in this case proven by arbitration to be the only fair method. Add to that the fact that I have a contract with both the east pilots and the company that says the Nic is it, and of course we end up with the only system seniority list that will be usable at LCC, the Nicolau award.

The east's childish behavior, (throwing a temper tantrum because they did not get their selfish desires) has done nothing but delay the inevitable, and in the long run has cost all of us hundreds of millions of dollars.

 

[nic4us]

Yea, there flying has only increased by over 25% , not to shabby. I'd say that's a windfall.

The West's flying has increased?

Another outright lie.

Prior to the merger the West had 1884 pilots, 142 aircraft. We are down to 122 aircraft and 15?? pilots.

Meanwhile, the about to liquidate east has enjoyed the delivery of aircraft that has more than doubled the 330 fleet, added 757s and 15 e190s.

Speaking of windfalls, the east recalls who stole the bottom 300 West jobs have absolutely no room to talk. I understand Coello is a usapa volunteer. I used to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume he was a decent guy, now I accuse him of being another piece of usapa scum, having gone from the street to gainfully employed at another pilots expense, and fighting to steal more from the West.

Very shabby indeed.

 

[BoeingBoy]

USAPA won't be held responsible for the childish behavior of the west side.

That's just one more time you're wrong. USAPA, by requesting both single carrier status for LCC and an Investigation of a representational dispute (which lead to the election of USAPA as CBA) committed itself to representing all LCC pilots equally. As I said to Barrister, your reference also says seniority integration is a zero sum exercise - moving one group of pilots up a list necessarily means moving another group down the list. So abandoning an arbitrated list to improve the seniority of East pilots at the expense of West pilots can most certainly be a DFR violation, especially when the C&R's offered are largely meaningless.

Maybe you need your glasses prescription changed - you read what you want to read in rulings and ignore what you don't like.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

That's just one more time you're wrong. USAPA, by requesting both single carrier status for LCC and an Investigation of a representational dispute (which lead to the election of USAPA as CBA) committed itself to representing all LCC pilots equally. As I said to Barrister, your reference also says seniority integration is a zero sum exercise - moving one group of pilots up a list necessarily means moving another group down the list. So abandoning an arbitrated list to improve the seniority of East pilots at the expense of West pilots can most certainly be a DFR violation, especially when the C&R's offered are largely meaningless.

Maybe you need your glasses prescription changed - you read what you want to read in rulings and ignore what you don't like.

Jim

Nope, you're WRONG again, oh legal expert. No one precluded participation by the west except the west themselves, WAAAY different than the Alaska-Jet America case, where Jet America was excluded by management AND ALPA, and ALPA admitted to not following their own merger policy.

USAPA IS following their merger policy. Everyone has been invited to the party. If they choose not to come, they can't complain about it.

Just wait, you'll see, oh god of judicial knowledge. If you want to see what they REALLY said in that case, read the link I provided in the earlier post. Or, have your attendant at the "home" read it to you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nope, you're WRONG again, oh legal expert. No one precluded participation by the west except the west themselves, WAAAY different than the Alaska-Jet America case, where Jet America was excluded by management AND ALPA, and ALPA admitted to not folowing their own merger policy.

You're doing that selective reading again old man - seems to be a habit of yours. I said that you were wrong about USAPA not being responsible for the "childish behavior" of the West. You were wrong since USAPA has a legal obligation to fairly represent the West pilots no matter what they do. That's RLA 101. I understand that there is promising research about senility - maybe you should be checking on that...

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You're doing that selective reading again old man - seems to be a habit of yours. I said that you were wrong about USAPA not being responsible for the "childish behavior" of the West. You were wrong since USAPA has a legal obligation to fairly represent the West pilots no matter what they do. That's RLA 101.

Jim

And they are. USAPA only recognizes ONE pilot group, NOT east OR west. The contract and it's provisions have to be what's best for the majority of ALL pilots. Go back and finish reading.

 

[BoeingBoy]

And they are. USAPA only recognizes ONE pilot group, NOT east OR west. The contract and it's provisions have to be whats best for the majority of ALL pilots. Go back and finish reading.

So you're admitting that I was right...but just don't have the honesty to actually say it...

Of course you add some more nonsense. USAPA recognizes only one pilot group? How about that ad hoc committee set up to look for ways to deny or minimize the West profit sharing - seems that USAPA wanted to recognize two pilot groups there.

And that majority thing - no less than SCOTUS has ruled that favoring the majority at the expense of the minority is a violation of a union's DFR responsibilities. But thanks for confirming what I suspected when East posters kept telling the West pilots to help get a non-Nic contract so the West could refile it's DFR suit - it's the "if the majority approves it it isn't a DFR violation" fantasy.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

So you're admitting that I was right...

Of course you add some more nonsense. USAPA recognizes only one pilot group? How about that ad hoc committee set up to look for ways to deny or minimize the West profit sharing - seems that USAPA wanted to recognize two pilot groups there.

And that majority thing - no less than SCOTUS has ruled that favoring the majority at the expense of the minority is a violation of a union's DFR responsibilities. But thanks for confirming what I suspected when East posters kept telling the West pilots to help get a non-Nic contract so the West could refile it's DFR suit - it's the "if the majority approves it it isn't a DFR violation" fantasy.

Jim

That wasn't what it was for, nor did it have that effect.

Go back and finish reading that link. You're making yourself look almost as dumb as you did when you saod that the SCOTUS wasn't going to discuss the Addington case.

 

[Pi brat]

They've got nothing Jim, other than their miserable selves. Reality is setting in. No DOH and all the fight has been for nothing.

They hate you and PS for the same reason they hate the West: we all have careers. You and PS were captains and the West is or will be captains for good chunks of their careers as well. They're angry and they'll lash out at anyone not like them. Must be miserable waking up each morning and being them. They really are to be pitied.

I believe that Jim has lamented the decline of his career and PS has been suffering a cross country commute for quite a while. Are you a captain, or have you ever been a captain?

 

[Pi brat]

sumadarson..how many east pilots have made captain that where hired in the last 3-5 years?

Most pilots hired at AWA expected and received an upgrade within 3-5 years with myself included.

Otter

How many west pilots hired in the last 3-5 years have already upgraded to captain? If none, why not? Are you still a captain?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I don't recall "saod"ing SCOTUS wouldn't discuss the Addington - how were they supposed to decide whether to accept the case or not? But they didn't rule on the meriits of Addington. In effect they didn't rule at all, they just declined hearing the case which left the 9th ruling standing.

Jim