US Pilots Labor Discussion

[trevrep]

Not a myth. There are guys with 16.5, even 17 years, never furloughed East guys placed behind west guys with less than 6 months on the property. You'll have to look yourself, since it's frowned upon to put real names on this site, but it's a fact that the Nic did that.

Doesn't matter anymore. ALPA's bargaining position is no more.

As usual...you're blowin' smoke.

And guess what "oldie".....it's not your call about ALPA's bargaining position (assume you are referring to the NIC decision). It's up to the courts, whom thanks to USAPA, will have this tied up for quite awhile. But frankly, separate ops is working just fine out West.

It may be hard for you to believe, but the majority of Westies have "0" desire to live East of the Rockies...news flash for ya. No desire to fly the Euro trips...been there done that, no thanks, no mo.

Really now oldie....put on a pot of coffee, get out the readers and READ the NIC award, not just the list......then it will all make sense.

Or just keep banging out you opinion on the keyboard till the cows come home but buddy............it's gonna be awhile before either of us sees any changes. I don't think DOH will ever see the light...you don't think the NIC will.

Once again "oldie"......................guess what little buddy, "it's not your call, and you don't know how it's going to end up, no more than you do how that snap back's gonna end up do ya?"

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Gramps;
It's not personal, it is professional business. You & yours have attempted to dodge an agreement by simply changing the name of the "union". IMHO you will be made to comply, eventually (if not, then I assure you your just desserts in the final judgement). You may even have to pay damages to those people that you have harmed.

I looked at the list, I have read the list, I have read the findings & the court proceedings. You think it's unfair, that's your OPINION. I think the #1 AWA pilot should have bee #1 or #2 on the new list. It's my OPINION. I still must comply with the final & binding arbitration as delivered via the ALPA merger policy. You have won DELAY, and that is all. EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS INDUSTRY KNOWS EXACTLY WHO AND WHAT THE AWA pilots are dealing with. USAPA is the BLACK SMUDGE in commercial aviation. Pariah to be more precise.

Whatever helps you get through the day, even if it's WRONG. You guys are the thieves that tried and failed. There are No damages to the west. PERIOD. You guys tried to STEAL the seniority of a lot of good guys and FAILED. You had a chance to possibly have a compromise at Wye River and wouldn't negotiate. It's all the West MEC's fault.

I have LOTS of friends at just about ALL other airlines that think you guys are STUPID for even thinking you could get away with it.

 

[cactusboy53]

Whatever helps you get through the day, even if it's WRONG. You guys are the thieves that tried and failed. There are No damages to the west. PERIOD. You guys tried to STEAL the seniority of a lot of good guys and FAILED. You had a chance to possibly have a compromise at Wye River and wouldn't negotiate. It's all the West MEC's fault.

I have LOTS of friends at just about ALL other airlines that think you guys are STUPID for even thinking you could get away with it.

Don't bust a cork there pops. Oh, BTW the Wye River event was the same as the rest.....wait for it ....here it comes......you guessed it.......CONDITONS & RESTRICTIONS. Sorry, we (other than your 3000 +/- best friends) didn't buy your little scheme (again).

You may have "lots of friends" that may be paying you lip service, I on the other hand am referring the pilots that I see during my weekly commute and on overnights (you might not believe this, but THEY ALWAYS ASK!!!!).

Have a prune juice smoothie, a high colonic & throw on a new pair of Depends......the Shite will eventually hit your fan.

 

[trevrep]

Whatever helps you get through the day, even if it's WRONG. You guys are the thieves that tried and failed. There are No damages to the west. PERIOD. You guys tried to STEAL the seniority of a lot of good guys and FAILED. You had a chance to possibly have a compromise at Wye River and wouldn't negotiate. It's all the West MEC's fault.

I have LOTS of friends at just about ALL other airlines that think you guys are STUPID for even thinking you could get away with it.

You just repeat that enough "oldie" and I'm sure you'll continue to believe it's all true.

What's wrong? Your reps whether they were ALPA or USAPA didn't negotiate and get a seniority list. Period. Didn't get one before NIC...don't have one now. Merely proposals, right? You only have that list when you have a ratified contract...guess what...USAPa has played into dougies hands and now we play "wait for the DJ" from the courts. Ground hog. Then whatever way it goes..someone appeals it. Guess what? You got it right this time...ground hog day again.

We, just like YOU went to final and binding arbitration because your reps and my reps couldn't negotiate a seniority integration list.

No one tried to steal anything....except the little boys in the angry f/o club. Period, over.

We haven't failed at trying to get the NIC into the contract.......you just don't get it yet.

The courts will decide "oldie"....I repeat NOT YOU! hahaha there's a news flash for CNN.

I'm sure you have lots of friends at other airlines that like to kiss your ask, but not me. All the ones we talk with, even NON airline people......can't believe what joke USaPa has made this merger. Laughing stock of the airlines....oh well, par for the course with US Airways botched up mergers.

Look in the mirror and repeat after me...."The Westies are bad people, they try to steal from good people. The NIC is dead. My friends think the Westies are stupid"...now repeat 100 times..click your heels and voila! You'll be a good union minion. hahaha......

You really crack me up.

How's your snap back going to turn out?

When do you tihink UsApa will present you with a TA to vote on?

Do you think if DOH is used for your new TA, the West guys will TRY to get an injunction and sue?

How do you think the courts will answer dougs call for DJ? Me, I thnk....they'll say too much speculation. Call us back when you have a ratified contract.

Either way, sit back, relax and enjoy the ride....it's gonna be a long one.

 

[cleardirect]

Whatever helps you get through the day, even if it's WRONG. You guys are the thieves that tried and failed. There are No damages to the west. PERIOD. You guys tried to STEAL the seniority of a lot of good guys and FAILED. You had a chance to possibly have a compromise at Wye River and wouldn't negotiate. It's all the West MEC's fault.

I have LOTS of friends at just about ALL other airlines that think you guys are STUPID for even thinking you could get away with it.

I think you got it backwards. It is the east that is trying to steal.

Both groups agreed to binding arbitration. That means we both agreed to turn it over to a NEUTRAL third party to decide. He decided after hearing many hours of sworn testimony. He told you that the east was not going to get DOH/LOS and gave you a chance to change your minds. You did not knowing that you were not going to get what you now are trying to force.

All the west pilots are doing to trying to implement what we agreed to.

On the other hand the east pilots made an agreement and now are going back on your word. The east pilots invented a list you were told was not fair and now ramming it through by force. STEALING. What was not yours.

You had a chance at the proper time to negotiate during the negotiating phase not after. Not compromising on the compromise. That is not the world works.

It was the AAA MEC fault for not negotiating at the time. It is the east pilots fault for not compromising when Nicolau told you to. It is the eat pilots fault for trying to steal seniority now and delaying a contract.

Of course you have told your friends ALL of the facts and the ENTIRE story right. Not just your opinion and version of the truth.

 

[exB717Flyer]

When an Eastie has the temerity to accuse the West of trying to steal anything you know it's nothing more than flame-baiting. Don't give him the satisfaction of getting riled up. Until the courts give us justice we just have to be patient. Who knows, maybe karma will catch up with him in the meantime.

 

[trevrep]

Whatever helps you get through the day, even if it's WRONG. You guys are the thieves that tried and failed. There are No damages to the west. PERIOD. You guys tried to STEAL the seniority of a lot of good guys and FAILED. You had a chance to possibly have a compromise at Wye River and wouldn't negotiate. It's all the West MEC's fault.

I have LOTS of friends at just about ALL other airlines that think you guys are STUPID for even thinking you could get away with it.

Looks like someone got up on the wrong side of the walker today......perhaps a little more prune juice might up?

 

[goneflyin]

I have LOTS of friends at just about ALL other airlines that think you guys are STUPID for even thinking you could get away with it.

I've spoken to very few guys at Delta that buy into your point of view. Most consider that the East is simply trying to weasel out of something to which they've agreed.

GF

 

[Pi brat]

I think you got it backwards. It is the east that is trying to steal.

Both groups agreed to binding arbitration. That means we both agreed to turn it over to a NEUTRAL third party to decide. He decided after hearing many hours of sworn testimony. He told you that the east was not going to get DOH/LOS and gave you a chance to change your minds. You did not knowing that you were not going to get what you now are trying to force.

All the west pilots are doing to trying to implement what we agreed to.

On the other hand the east pilots made an agreement and now are going back on your word. The east pilots invented a list you were told was not fair and now ramming it through by force. STEALING. What was not yours.

You had a chance at the proper time to negotiate during the negotiating phase not after. Not compromising on the compromise. That is not the world works.

It was the AAA MEC fault for not negotiating at the time. It is the east pilots fault for not compromising when Nicolau told you to. It is the eat pilots fault for trying to steal seniority now and delaying a contract.

Of course you have told your friends ALL of the facts and the ENTIRE story right. Not just your opinion and version of the truth.

I think the use of the word "steal" for east or west is wrong.

The west didn't steal anything. They were given what the got through a supposedly unbiased, neutral third party, and the Nic was not a gain for many west pilots-the senior ones. The worst that could be claimed of them would be of receiving ill gotten gains. 99% of east pilots, quite a few oal pilots and even some west pilots feel that Nic made major mistakes with his list and the west should have been willing to address those flaws, but I can't see any legal obligation to do so. I can see a fairness/pragmatic reason to have done so. Neither side of this fight is going to get to where they want to be with the other side fighting against them.

I do not believe the majority of the east is trying to steal. They see it as trying to correct a wrong. While I feel that Nic got the bottom 1/3 of the list very wrong,my personal opinion is that, as currently envisioned, the east method of correcting it goes too far and is not fair enough to west pilots.

Clear, where I disagree with you and many of your west friends that say it over and over is that the east failed to negotiate. They DID negotiate and looked at many different options that did not include DOH/LOS. In the end they decided that the two groups were too far apart and would never be able to bridge the gap. ALPA merger policy gave them an easy way out, let the arbitrator decide, and BOTH sides were responsible for it getting there. The west is just happier with ALPA merger policy because it came out more to their satisfaction.

This thing is a mess and we should never gotten here, but here we are. I do believe that a lot of guys just use this board for sport, but I think the mud slinging back and forth is damaging and will make it very hard to ever fix this thing. Both sides have dug in. Why can't we leave it to the courts to decide? Can anyone honestly say they have changed anyone's opinion on anything through this board?

 

[Pi brat]

we have pilots who are furloughed that were hired before some of your guys who are working..is that not harm? Captains downgraded due to the shrinkage on the West to TA minimums...is that not Harm?

There is no doubt that there are west pilots whose careers have been "harmed" as compared to where they were prior to the merger, but I disagree about why. Just because someone was furloughed or downgraded does not mean it is the east's fault. In all probability, those things would have happened absent the merger. You are correct when you ASSUME that had the east not fought the Nic AND gotten a joint contract, their damage wouldn't have been as a bad-the east would have absorbed it. The thing you fail to acknowledge is how hard it would have been to achieve a joint contract with the Nic award in it, and absent that joint contract things would have happened just as they did.

I'm not an east pilot that says that the east would never ratify a contract that includes the Nic. As a matter of fact I have said that the east WOULD ratify, IF it was good enough. That's the sticking point. I do not believe that with oil trading in the range it has been the company will come to the table with a contract that is good enough and without 95%+ support of the pilot group, we don't have the pressure to make it happen. That is the same with a pilot group fighting over USAPA or if we had stayed ALPA and had the east junior group on the outside.

 

[cleardirect]

There is no doubt that there are west pilots whose careers have been "harmed" as compared to where they were prior to the merger, but I disagree about why. Just because someone was furloughed or downgraded does not mean it is the east's fault. In all probability, those things would have happened absent the merger. You are correct when you ASSUME that had the east not fought the Nic AND gotten a joint contract, their damage wouldn't have been as a bad-the east would have absorbed it. The thing you fail to acknowledge is how hard it would have been to achieve a joint contract with the Nic award in it, and absent that joint contract things would have happened just as they did.

I'm not an east pilot that says that the east would never ratify a contract that includes the Nic. As a matter of fact I have said that the east WOULD ratify, IF it was good enough. That's the sticking point. I do not believe that with oil trading in the range it has been the company will come to the table with a contract that is good enough and without 95%+ support of the pilot group, we don't have the pressure to make it happen. That is the same with a pilot group fighting over USAPA or if we had stayed ALPA and had the east junior group on the outside.

I think I see some progress here. At least you are now admitting that it is the east junior group that is driving this entire mess. We are all being held hostage by the guys that think we all should pay for their careers. Senior east/west. Mid level east/west, junior west. The only ones this is not costing is the junior east pilots they have exactly what they would have had using the Nicolau. Except a new contract. So instead of 500-800 junior east pilots being upset you decided that it should be the entire 1800 west pilots. Nice shift there.

 

[Pi brat]

I think I see some progress here. At least you are now admitting that it is the east junior group that is driving this entire mess. We are all being held hostage by the guys that think we all should pay for their careers. Senior east/west. Mid level east/west, junior west. The only ones this is not costing is the junior east pilots they have exactly what they would have had using the Nicolau. Except a new contract. So instead of 500-800 junior east pilots being upset you decided that it should be the entire 1800 west pilots. Nice shift there.
[/quote

Even though I think it would be a scary trip, I would really like to see inside your head so I get get how you think. Repeatedly, you tell me what I think.

"Now"? It's not now, I have always felt that way, but you don't get how I think. It's not just the east junior pilots driving this, it's east and west junior pilots driving this. It's natural because they are fighting over the scraps. The entire seniority list is being held hostage to the junior pilots from both sides.

We don't want and you cannot "pay" for our careers. We just don't want it being given to you disproportionately, and many people feel that is what the Nic does. I'm not asking you to accept that and feel that way, but stop telling what I'm doing, because over and over you show that you have no clue.

Lastly, this is costing the junior east pilots. They are stuck at bottom of the barrel pay rates while not being able to upgrade. They have just decided that the cost now is worth the potential protection of their seniority, and I don't see that changing.

 

[cleardirect]

I think I see some progress here. At least you are now admitting that it is the east junior group that is driving this entire mess. We are all being held hostage by the guys that think we all should pay for their careers. Senior east/west. Mid level east/west, junior west. The only ones this is not costing is the junior east pilots they have exactly what they would have had using the Nicolau. Except a new contract. So instead of 500-800 junior east pilots being upset you decided that it should be the entire 1800 west pilots. Nice shift there.

Even though I think it would be a scary trip, I would really like to see inside your head so I get get how you think. Repeatedly, you tell me what I think.

"Now"? It's not now, I have always felt that way, but you don't get how I think. It's not just the east junior pilots driving this, it's east and west junior pilots driving this. It's natural because they are fighting over the scraps. The entire seniority list is being held hostage to the junior pilots from both sides.

We don't want and you cannot "pay" for our careers. We just don't want it being given to you disproportionately, and many people feel that is what the Nic does. I'm not asking you to accept that and feel that way, but stop telling what I'm doing, because over and over you show that you have no clue.

Lastly, this is costing the junior east pilots. They are stuck at bottom of the barrel pay rates while not being able to upgrade. They have just decided that the cost now is worth the potential protection of their seniority, and I don't see that changing.

Your opinion. Many people think that it does not disproportionately shift anything. I know let's let someone without a dog in the fight decide. Guess we did that. It is also our senior captains fighting this that would be put below furloughed east pilots. It is not just junior west pilots. Our entire list would be screwed.

We go back to my point. The junior east pilots driving this. THEY the 500-800 have decided it is not worth it for their personal benefit. Costing the rest of us.

I am glad to see that you said potential and understand that it is not a done deal yet. Unlike some of your buddies that say NIC is DOA.

 

[Pi brat]

Your opinion. Many people think that it does not disproportionately shift anything. I know let's let someone without a dog in the fight decide. Guess we did that. It is also our senior captains fighting this that would be put below furloughed east pilots. It is not just junior west pilots. Our entire list would be screwed.

We go back to my point. The junior east pilots driving this. THEY the 500-800 have decided it is not worth it for their personal benefit. Costing the rest of us.

Not just my opinion, it's many people's opinion, including two west captains I have talked to. It doesn't matter, it's an opinion and you don't have to agree with us, just as we don't have to agree with you. All we have to do is abide by the rulings of the courts.

Your point that 500-800 pilots are driving this doesn't make sense. Did 500-800 pilots drive the USAPA/ALPA election? Are 500-800 pilots holding guns to the other pilots heads? No, but it is the junior pilots on both sides(capt and f/o) that have the most to lose on this. A lot of where we are can be laid at the feet of those that chose not to join the union and vote. They helped the present regime get in and stay. I think every pilot has a part in this disaster, even if not equally shared.

I certainly agree that the Nic is not DOA. I have no clue how this will turn out, but I feel pretty sure we have a very long way to go unless unseen circumstances intervene.

 

[cleardirect]

Not just my opinion, it's many people's opinion, including two west captains I have talked to. It doesn't matter, it's an opinion and you don't have to agree with us, just as we don't have to agree with you. All we have to do is abide by the rulings of the courts.

Your point that 500-800 pilots are driving this doesn't make sense. Did 500-800 pilots drive the USAPA/ALPA election? Are 500-800 pilots holding guns to the other pilots heads? No, but it is the junior pilots on both sides(capt and f/o) that have the most to lose on this. A lot of where we are can be laid at the feet of those that chose not to join the union and vote. They helped the present regime get in and stay. I think every pilot has a part in this disaster, even if not equally shared.

I certainly agree that the Nic is not DOA. I have no clue how this will turn out, but I feel pretty sure we have a very long way to go unless unseen circumstances intervene.

No all you have to do is abide by the agreed to final and binding arbitration. But oh yes you will abide by the court ruling too.

But we did vote. You did not need to be a member of ALPA to vote. It was only after the east pilots took our union and replaced it with your own did we not join usapa. A union designed to harm the west. Why would anyone join an organization created to do harm? Again AFTER the fact.

No we did not vote for the present regime. That is all east. We have no blame in that.

How much support does usapa have now? Is it still the majority of east pilots? Does usapa have the support of any west pilots? After almost 3 years has usapa done anything to create unity?