US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nycbusdriver]

The big batch of F 28 s were from Garuda Airways. old pieces of junk, re painted. You knew exactly how long those things were hanging around. Just long enough to get the Empire pilots stapled into position.

Exactly. If Garuda was getting rid of them, what does that tell you? These things were falling apart the day they were delivered. Empire brought some new hulls, the Piedmont hulls were rust buckets.

Don't know where you got your info. It's partially true. The F28-1000 were indeed ex-Garuda, but every one of those airplanes went through a complete factory refurbishment at Fokker's Amsterdam facilities. While still technically "used," they were in very good shape when Piedmont took delivery of them. Customers thought they were new. They were not "old pieces of junk," not "rust buckets" any more than the B727-200s were that Piedmont acquired from PSA when PSA went to MD-80s. I was on the delivery crew of the first of those 727s, and they were as spotless as the F28s from Fokker were.

Nothing wrong with used airplanes. It doesn't appear that anyone criticized those old, well-worn ex-EAL B757s that were left to cook in the desert for a year or more before USAir resurrected them. At least the Fokkers were factory refurbished.

And besides, the F28s were a real kick to fly...definitely more fun than the 757...except maybe on payday.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I remember daring ATC to keep us high, that F-28 speed brake should have been labeled "helicopter mode" - and if you could push the nose over and see the runway - you could land on it.

 

[Reed Richards]

ALPA not producing something from private web forums is neither here nor there and as you know (or maybe not) posting outside writings here without the copyright or author's permission is against the rules, so I can't oblige you within the rules. They exist, whether or not you choose to believe it.

I will give snippets without revealing which PHL rep wrote them.

"let USAPA take over"
"We, your USAPA Volunteers"
"If a contract gets ratified BEFORE the USAPA vote then we are all screwed."

That should give you a taste for what was happening behind the curtain. As I said, the aforementioned ALPA reps were representing their members wishes, just not ALPA. The charge, paraphrasing, was being disloyal to ALPA. I believe USAPA has similar language in it's constitution, and wonder how USAPA would treat members of the BPR for working to replace USAPA while being USAPA reps.


Jim

Jim, so called "snippets" from you, with no time stamp, no names, and especially no context are about as worthless as the nonexistent protections you stood by and watched the Empire guys take in the keaster. I don’t care if the F-28s were spit shined with chrome accents, or where they came from….every PI new hire got his DOH flying them, and every Empire guy was stapled to 1 Jan 86. Even the Republic guys had a 20 year fence at NWA..better than what you gave Empire.

But please don't break any rules. And for gosh sakes, don't get involved until your autumn years, where it becomes all “but a beautiful journey” you have taken….at the expense of others.

You, of all people, have no idea what was going on behind any curtains, and especially those of the PHL reps or even USAPA. Maybe you rode the Sesame Street bus with the ALPA guys during the final flight pay loss road trip. They sure all had it figured out.

RR

 

[prechilill]

Jim, so called "snippets" from you, with no time stamp, no names, and especially no context are about as worthless as the nonexistent protections you stood by and watched the Empire guys take in the keaster. I don’t care if the F-28s were spit shined with chrome accents, or where they came from….every PI new hire got his DOH flying them, and every Empire guy was stapled to 1 Jan 86. Even the Republic guys had a 20 year fence at NWA..better than what you gave Empire.

But please don't break any rules. And for gosh sakes, don't get involved until your autumn years, where it becomes all “but a beautiful journey” you have taken….at the expense of others.

You, of all people, have no idea what was going on behind any curtains, and especially those of the PHL reps or even USAPA. Maybe you rode the Sesame Street bus with the ALPA guys during the final flight pay loss road trip. They sure all had it figured out.

RR

I love posts like these- the anger is so apparent in these first officers...

AFO motto: "live angry or die"

I can add to it: live angry, frustrated, poor and commute until the end creeps up on you. Before you know it Reed you will see uSAPa has all your answers for you in life.

 

[Al Legheny]

Yes, Adolph Hussein Cleary took it upon himself to remove two of our reps without due process. Big surprise. We're getting the government involved in this one. Won't cost us a cent. He and the BPR can't hide in the bunker this time. Looking forward to the big exit.

Is Mike Cleary's action legal.? It mostly likely will be upheld by the BPR. Does that make it legal? Is there any legal basis for his actions?

Contractually yes.... The items below are taken from the West Contract, section 18,19,and 21.


SECTION 19
INVESTIGATION AND DISCIPLINE
A. DISCIPLINE AND DISCHARGE

2. Within ten (10) calendar days from receipt of the notice, the Pilot or the Association may ask for a
hearing on the charge(s) by submitting a written request to the Vice President of Flight Operations.
The Pilot shall have the right to be represented and call witnesses at such hearing in accordance
with Section 18.


SECTION 18
WITNESSES AND REPRESENTATIVES
A. REPRESENTATION
Except as otherwise provided in Section 21, a Pilot shall have the right to be represented at any Company
hearing or investigation by an Association representative (including Association attorneys) or another Pilot
on the America West Airlines Pilots’ System Seniority List with the approval of the Association, provided the
Company has been notified in writing. It is the intention of the parties that hearings and investigations are
to be conducted informally whenever possible.



SECTION 21
SYSTEM BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT
A. SYSTEM BOARD
1. In compliance with Section 204, Title II, of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, there is hereby
established a System Board of Adjustment, which shall be known as the “AMERICA WEST AIRLINES
PILOTS’ SYSTEM BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT” (the “Board”).

2. The Board shall have jurisdiction over timely appeals of grievances filed by any Pilot, group of
Pilots, the Association MEC or the Company growing out of the interpretation or application of any
of the terms of this Agreement, which have not been resolved in accordance with Sections 19,
20 or the Grievance Mediation Letter of Agreement, as applicable.


The America West contract places the system Board, chaired by Grievance chairperson, in charge of this process. The system board has contractually mandated oversight. If President Cleary’s actions are upheld by the BPR he is contractually in the right.

It is an open question as to whether this action represents defacto "trusteeship". Trusteeship is governed by LMRDA, and that is a totally different kettle of fish. My guess is he didn't take this action without considerable legal consultation.

 

[No Land Green]

I love posts like these- the anger is so apparent in these first officers...

LMAO.......What makes you think RR is a first officer?

 

[aquagreen73s]

LMAO.......What makes you think RR is a first officer?

Because regionals make more than East group II captains.

 

[No Land Green]

Because regionals make more than East group II captains.

Keep thinking it's just the Fo's that are "angry" on the East.......LMAO.........Send me some more West generated U.S. Mail so I can laugh and fill my trash can some more......

 

[cleardirect]

Is Mike Cleary's action legal.? It mostly likely will be upheld by the BPR. Does that make it legal? Is there any legal basis for his actions?

Contractually yes.... The items below are taken from the West Contract, section 18,19,and 21.


The America West contract places the system Board, chaired by Grievance chairperson, in charge of this process. The system board has contractually mandated oversight. If President Cleary’s actions are upheld by the BPR he is contractually in the right.

It is an open question as to whether this action represents defacto "trusteeship". Trusteeship is governed by LMRDA, and that is a totally different kettle of fish. My guess is he didn't take this action without considerable legal consultation.

You are mixing apples and oranges. Ames is saying that what Cleary did with or without the BPR is illegal under the LMRDA, nothing to do with the contract. Just like the majority cannot vote to DFR the minority. The contract or a committee cannot violate LMRDA.

The usapa C&BL puts the BPR in charge of the union not F/O Parrella.

Would that be the same legal advice that told a court that merger policy only appllied to the merger reps not the pilots that they represent? That sound legal advice?

Did you have a problem with ALPA putting PHL in trusteeship? But you don’t have a problem with Cleary putting our reps in trusteeship? Just trying understand the logic here.

 

[cleardirect]

Keep thinking it's just the Fo's that are "angry" on the East.......LMAO.........Send me some more West generated U.S. Mail so I can laugh and fill my trash can some more......

Keep that sense of humor. You are going to need it later. LOA 93 or Nicolau. Keep laughing.

 

[prechilill]

LMAO.......What makes you think RR is a first officer?

I know where our super hero is on the list

 

[aquagreen73s]

Keep thinking it's just the Fo's that are "angry" on the East.......LMAO.........Send me some more West generated U.S. Mail so I can laugh and fill my trash can some more......

We know it's two thirds of the east pilots are deranged enough to stay on LOA 93, even though they're hurting themselves the most. That's fine.

But what is clearly causing all the concern on the East is that you totally eff'd up getting rid of separate ratification. Now all we need is a few hundred on the East to change their votes and ALPA is back. West plus a thousand or so on the East and you've got a new contract with the Nic.

Watching the deranged East (2/3 of all East pilots) melt down is going to be a very enjoyable event in 2011.

Got popcorn?

 

[No Land Green]

PHX would have downsized just like PSA did, the West would have hit the street while there was hiring on the East No thanks.

I will keep LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pretty confident in your West Operation, aren't you?

 

[No Land Green]

I know where our super hero is on the list

That's good that you do...............I hope you are right........

 

[No Land Green]

Keep that sense of humor. You are going to need it later. LOA 93 or Nicolau. Keep laughing.

I've had it since day 1 and will continue to....