US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Portly Dorman]

So when this comes before an arbitration panel how are the 3 lists from US/HP explained? (US list, HP list, 3rd list)

Is the Addington Trial and the 9th circus just ignored? The DJ hearing and ruling...meaningless?

Just curious as I don't have the firm grasp on the legal side of all this.

What you describe is exactly what will happen. The life of the Nicolau list resides in the current TA which was negotiated about 7 years ago among the two MECs and the company. That TA has always required a ratified contract to make the Nicolau list effective.

The company and USAPA have always been free to renegotiate the TA at any time...as it is simply a contract and parties are free to change the terms. Neither has shown any propensity to do so, therefore the TA is still in effect.

However, now that the company is looking to acquire AA, the current TA will likely be subsumed by a new TA, and the integration of seniority will likely have to use the current ACTIVE lists. That means at least three lists. Once the new TA is signed, the Nicolau will be history since its basis (the old TA) will be no longer. The integration process is spelled out very well in the McCaskill-Bond legislation. That's how it will go.

Is there a possibility that the APA will see eye-to-eye with USAPA and come up with a negotiated list. I think yes. APA doesn't really care one whit about the east or the west. USAPA can be very generous in negotiating a list culled from the three active lists. WHile the C&B-Ls mandate DOH, it also allows for restrictions and fences. I suspect that USAPA will be VERY generous in negotiating very high, very long-lived fences to make the AA pilots happy. The AA pilots have little interest in anything we have here, so fences will make good neighbors. If the APA goes along with DOH and, say, ten year fences and many restrictions that I can't even imagine, that will end it. Most of the east won't be here in ten years, so the easties get to go along on their merry way until retirement.

Otherwise, it will go to a McCaskill-Bond arbitration. This time, it's an arbitration with teeth, i.e. federally mandated as opposed to the Nicolau internal ALPA process (as the west attorney famously said, the Nicolau list is simply a bargaining position.) While the westies can dream of an arbitration team that will "stick it" to the east, it is highly unlikely. It is hard to imagine that the east would be worse off than the Nicolau if it came to a McCaskill-Bond arbitration. About the only group in jeopardy of losing some ground, I think, is my own east 517 (now more like 300.) But once decided, there will be no more possibility of stall tactics.

Bottom line: The Nicolau obscenity summarily dies with the new TA. Little doubt about that. DFR lawsuit? Who cares if the west wants to start over and spend their children's inheritance on more lawyers.

 

[Portly Dorman]

Neither Crimi nor Ray ever turned a wheel tho. Does attending groundschool equate to actually WORKING the struck work? Personally I don't think it does. Having said that, I do agree with you that it looks bad. Most peeps who have had dealings with either of these guys will tell you they have worked very hard and done a good job in their union positions.

J Ray was on the OLD Continental list, way before my time, but he's definately in the history books. Crimi who knows. Speaks of pure unionism but yet he started down that road....

Will agree they have towed the 'true unionism' line quite well. Loyal to the end. Strong arming and all.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If Silver simply affirms the 9th's position...what is there to appeal for either side?

If she rules as you think, probably nothing. However, the central question is the company's legal responsibility and I can't see how just quoting the 9th answers that. The company does have a valid question for DJ determination so I think it's more likely that she'll rule on what the company is required to do. Whether she includes any DFR guidance is secondary if the company can have legal immunity for a course of action. The 9th already warned USAPA (and by extension APA if a merger occurs) of the consequences of not representing both sides fairly, so she doesn't really have to mention that.

Silver could just say that the company is legally bound to the Nic by the TA and the acceptance of the Nic unless it and USAPA agree to modify the TA. Would the company agree to modifications knowing that doing so would trigger a hybrid DFR suit? Those company filings in the DJ could be used against the company in a hybrid suit and the company lawyers know it...

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Neither Crimi nor Ray ever turned a wheel tho. Does attending groundschool equate to actually WORKING the struck work? Personally I don't think it does. Having said that, I do agree with you that it looks bad. Most peeps who have had dealings with either of these guys will tell you they have worked very hard and done a good job in their union positions.

Now let me get this straight.

Ray is not a scab because he works very hard at telling the public half truths for the scab union and he also took employment at Continental during a strike?

Crimi...well I would not consider Crimi a scab for working at Freedom, but I do consider him a scab for his support of usapa.


So, explain to me what makes an AWA pilot who flew in Australia a scab, then maybe we can find some common ground on the definition of a scab and label individuals properly.

 

[nic4us]

I agree, Crimi and Ray give the east a black eye too, right?

Oh,,,but of course not,,,,Ray is a usapa supporter and works very hard for the communications committe spreading the lies usapa scabs wish the public to believe.

Therefore, Ray, who took employment at Continental during the strike, simply does not fit into the usapian definition of scab, and they will find some rationalization to back that up.

 

[nic4us]

If she rules as you think, probably nothing. However, the central question is the company's legal responsibility and I can't see how just quoting the 9th answers that. The company does have a valid question for DJ determination so I think it's more likely that she'll rule on what the company is required to do. Whether she includes any DFR guidance is secondary if the company can have legal immunity for a course of action. The 9th already warned USAPA (and by extension APA if a merger occurs) of the consequences of not representing both sides fairly, so she doesn't really have to mention that.

Silver could just say that the company is legally bound to the Nic by the TA and the acceptance of the Nic unless it and USAPA agree to modify the TA. Would the company agree to modifications knowing that doing so would trigger a hybrid DFR suit? Those company filings in the DJ could be used against the company in a hybrid suit and the company lawyers know it...

Jim

I do not think she would just quote the 9th and tell everbody to carry on.

I do think she will affirm the 9th's position in her ruling and point out for the company its liability or lack thereof for amending the TA without the consent of the third party to the TA, that being the West pilot group.

The big question would be, if she tells the company they are liable to the West pilot group, how does usapa appeal that? The 9th already told usapa that usapa is liable to the West pilot group and to not stray from their DFR. So, how does usapa go in front of the 9th and say, "hey judges, we want to fail the West, and the darn company just won't agree to it for fear liability to their pilots. We are appealing so that the company can agree to let us fail our DFR to the West".

Makes no sense at all.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The big question would be, if she tells the company they are liable to the West pilot group, how does usapa appeal that?

The same way idiots who cut their fingers off trying to trim a hedge with a lawnmower file a defective product lawsuit - submit the paperwork and pay any fee required. Anyone can file an appeal. Getting it heard or even winning is something else...

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

Michael Cleary delivered USAPA to the promised land. Right into the AA merger with no NICOLAU. unbelievable move!

He also delivered you into an injunction, continued your LOA93 lifestyles, spent numerous amounts of dues money on friviolous litigation, and fired your architect of DOH cramdown.

And what do you have to show for it?

Welcome to your promised land. LMAO.

CLT in 2014 ClaxoMM!

 

[Pi brat]

Ray is not a scab because he works very hard at telling the public half truths for the scab union and he also took employment at Continental during a strike?

Do you know for sure that Ray was employed by Continental? Were you there, or are you going on a 30 year old scab list with the oh so obscure name of James Ray?

 

[Graceson]

Forgive me for not going half cocked about absolutes rabbit trails ...

Your observation about "measure of value in the profession" is the heart of the cause for the internal union dispute. It isn't that it can't be defined, it is that there is no agreement on the definition (despite the multitude of millions of dollars paid in dues by tens of thousands of pilots across decades and decades of the profession that is far more profitable to exploit than define.)

Nice. I like the “rabbit trails” imagery. So appropriate.

Had a dog wander onto our property when I was a kid. So ugly you had to love her Picasso-like beauty. She was squat, sinewy, not a proportionate feature on the animal. She had a strange tic, her lips twitching back when she was nervous, exposing her fangs. Kind of spooky if her rat tail hadn’t been wagging. I called her Smiley. Poor thing was starving. We were friends ‘till she died in her sleep.

First day with the ####, I headed out with gun in hand. She followed. Your call, I thought. Less than two-hundred yards, I raise, take aim...Boom. One less rabbit, but the #### split the tall grass, headed home in a blur of speed I’d rarely seen. F@*#ing city dogs!

Next day, she gained confidence, ran only half as far. But then she discovered the kill and it excited her. She took readily to the scent and taste of it. Within a month, she’d become a deadly hunter-tracker. Catching scent of the furry critters, she’d give chase into the briar patch with quick cuts and deceptive speed. Predictably, the rabbit circled back, it’s life ending on the same looping rabbit trail, where it’d begun.

This forum... the briar patch? Who’s the rabbit? Who’s the ####? How many times do they exchange roles and repeat the same predictable circuit, on the rabbit trail, ending where they’d begun? Who gains, except the hunter? And who’s the hunter? I’ve an idea.

Yep, trapped in their own paradigm, pilots have failed to evolve. They have no measure of the value of their place within a dynamic industry, and thus fail to recognize their real strength. All the while, they fall victim to the hunter who has evolved to exploit the inevitable.

 

[nic4us]

Do you know for sure that Ray was employed by Continental? Were you there, or are you going on a 30 year old scab list with the oh so obscure name of James Ray?

I know for sure I read the letter James Ray, usapa communications, wrote to the usapa membership trying to explain why he went to Continental during the strike.

So, do I know for sure a pathological liar who wrote a letter actual did what he claimed to do in the letter? Good question.

Normally, I do not believe a single word out of anything from usapa communications, so...

I will just have to guess that the James Ray on the 30 year old scab list is indeed the same James Ray with the same DOB who wrote the letter claiming to have gone to Continental during the strike and take him for his word on that one.

 

[EastCheats]

He also delivered you into an injunction, continued your LOA93 lifestyles, spent numerous amounts of dues money on friviolous litigation, and fired your architect of DOH cramdown.

And what do you have to show for it?

Welcome to you're promised land. LMAO.

CLT in 2014 ClaxoMM!

I'm sorry to see him go with that record.

I know Claxo misses him. :wub:

 

[Pi brat]

I know for sure I read the letter James Ray, usapa communications, wrote to the usapa membership trying to explain why he went to Continental during the strike.

So, do I know for sure a pathological liar who wrote a letter actual did what he claimed to do in the letter? Good question.

Normally, I do not believe a single word out of anything from usapa communications, so...

I will just have to guess that the James Ray on the 30 year old scab list is indeed the same James Ray with the same DOB who wrote the letter claiming to have gone to Continental during the strike and take him for his word on that one.

Do you have that letter, because I don't remember is saying he went to CO and I talked to him on the phone about it.

 

[Move2CLT]

Do you know for sure that Ray was employed by Continental? Were you there, or are you going on a 30 year old scab list with the oh so obscure name of James Ray?

A member of the CAL MEC during this time vouched to this.

Ray is a scab just as Crimi is.

 

[Pi brat]

A member of the CAL MEC during this time vouched to this.

Ray is a scab just as Crimi is.

I talked to some guy from SAN about it. He said he was pretty sure it was the same, but not sure. I remember a certain westie twisting it. One thing is for sure, there have been plenty of scabs at AWA that seemed to be proud of it, so why all the talk? That, and so many of you apply the term to those that don't deserve it.