US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Claxon]

Michael Cleary delivered USAPA to the promised land. Right into the AA merger with no NICOLAU. unbelievable move!

 

[cleardirect]

What you describe is exactly what will happen. The life of the Nicolau list resides in the current TA which was negotiated about 7 years ago among the two MECs and the company. That TA has always required a ratified contract to make the Nicolau list effective.

The company and USAPA have always been free to renegotiate the TA at any time...as it is simply a contract and parties are free to change the terms. Neither has shown any propensity to do so, therefore the TA is still in effect.

However, now that the company is looking to acquire AA, the current TA will likely be subsumed by a new TA, and the integration of seniority will likely have to use the current ACTIVE lists. That means at least three lists. Once the new TA is signed, the Nicolau will be history since its basis (the old TA) will be no longer. The integration process is spelled out very well in the McCaskill-Bond legislation. That's how it will go.

Is there a possibility that the APA will see eye-to-eye with USAPA and come up with a negotiated list. I think yes. APA doesn't really care one whit about the east or the west. USAPA can be very generous in negotiating a list culled from the three active lists. WHile the C&B-Ls mandate DOH, it also allows for restrictions and fences. I suspect that USAPA will be VERY generous in negotiating very high, very long-lived fences to make the AA pilots happy. The AA pilots have little interest in anything we have here, so fences will make good neighbors. If the APA goes along with DOH and, say, ten year fences and many restrictions that I can't even imagine, that will end it. Most of the east won't be here in ten years, so the easties get to go along on their merry way until retirement.

Otherwise, it will go to a McCaskill-Bond arbitration. This time, it's an arbitration with teeth, i.e. federally mandated as opposed to the Nicolau internal ALPA process (as the west attorney famously said, the Nicolau list is simply a bargaining position.) While the westies can dream of an arbitration team that will "stick it" to the east, it is highly unlikely. It is hard to imagine that the east would be worse off than the Nicolau if it came to a McCaskill-Bond arbitration. About the only group in jeopardy of losing some ground, I think, is my own east 517 (now more like 300.) But once decided, there will be no more possibility of stall tactics.

Bottom line: The Nicolau obscenity summarily dies with the new TA. Little doubt about that. DFR lawsuit? Who cares if the west wants to start over and spend their children's inheritance on more lawyers.

So you think in your little fantasy everything is going to work out for you. That the east pilots can get big fences to keep the big bad AA pilots from taking "your" positions. Life would be good for you for the next 5-10 years until you leave.

What you forget is that usapa has a duty to ALL us airways pilots not just east pilots. Negotiating like that harms the west so we would be in court for a DFR again. The APA and the company don't want that. The company does not want long expensive fences and restriction. The APA is not going to give up money in order to protect east pilots.

Keep dreaming. This is going to be put together very quickly. Using A/M rules. Relative seniority with some equipment fences. Using the Nicolau and the AA list.

When judge Silver comes back and says you have to use the Nicolau what are you going to do?

 

[Claxon]

Leonidas is out of funds. They have no relevance. They ignore the wisdom of the 9th and cling to a local judge again to give false hope. The 9th is the end game and they already opined clearly. The fanatical junior western fail to listen. The AA deal will ice their hopes of an unjust ideal. Tick Tock

 

[Benz M-100]

I see not much has changed here since my self imposed lurker exile several months ago.
Wonder what's taking Silver so long to rule on something that seems so cut and dried to so many here?

 

[nic4us]

What you describe is exactly what will happen. The life of the Nicolau list resides in the current TA which was negotiated about 7 years ago among the two MECs and the company. That TA has always required a ratified contract to make the Nicolau list effective.

The company and USAPA have always been free to renegotiate the TA at any time...as it is simply a contract and parties are free to change the terms. Neither has shown any propensity to do so, therefore the TA is still in effect.

However, now that the company is looking to acquire AA, the current TA will likely be subsumed by a new TA, and the integration of seniority will likely have to use the current ACTIVE lists. That means at least three lists. Once the new TA is signed, the Nicolau will be history since its basis (the old TA) will be no longer. The integration process is spelled out very well in the McCaskill-Bond legislation. That's how it will go.

Is there a possibility that the APA will see eye-to-eye with USAPA and come up with a negotiated list. I think yes. APA doesn't really care one whit about the east or the west. USAPA can be very generous in negotiating a list culled from the three active lists. WHile the C&B-Ls mandate DOH, it also allows for restrictions and fences. I suspect that USAPA will be VERY generous in negotiating very high, very long-lived fences to make the AA pilots happy. The AA pilots have little interest in anything we have here, so fences will make good neighbors. If the APA goes along with DOH and, say, ten year fences and many restrictions that I can't even imagine, that will end it. Most of the east won't be here in ten years, so the easties get to go along on their merry way until retirement.

Otherwise, it will go to a McCaskill-Bond arbitration. This time, it's an arbitration with teeth, i.e. federally mandated as opposed to the Nicolau internal ALPA process (as the west attorney famously said, the Nicolau list is simply a bargaining position.) While the westies can dream of an arbitration team that will "stick it" to the east, it is highly unlikely. It is hard to imagine that the east would be worse off than the Nicolau if it came to a McCaskill-Bond arbitration. About the only group in jeopardy of losing some ground, I think, is my own east 517 (now more like 300.) But once decided, there will be no more possibility of stall tactics.

Bottom line: The Nicolau obscenity summarily dies with the new TA. Little doubt about that. DFR lawsuit? Who cares if the west wants to start over and spend their children's inheritance on more lawyers.

If/when a future merger occurs, and the Nic is used as the LCC seniority list, please seek help dealing with the bout of uncontrollable deppression headed your way.

I would hate to see you or any other east pilot do something drastic when your scab attempts at stealing another persons job fails.

Til then, carry on in your fantasy world where you renege on binding arbitration by "buying labor peace with a cost neutral contract", have LOA93 snap back wages, have dismissed lawsuits throw out the Nic (MDA). Where scabbing is only a RICO lawsuit away from destroying the righteous, and COC will save your pension and right the wrong of your being furloughed from your career choice at a shothole airline 9 out of 15 years.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Verbose? LOL!

15,000+ posts and you are calling someone else "verbose?"

But East's over 7 posts a day saying nothing are all masterpieces, you think....

Jim

 

[Claxon]

I see not much has changed here since my self imposed lurker exile several months ago.
Wonder what's taking Silver so long to rule on something that seems so cut and dried to so many here?

Her Leonidas proof bunker is not yet completed and the security detail not yet in place for when she listens to Wakes admonition to not go against judicial norms and the 9th. She knows she has to rule for USAPA. She just cannot do it without the proper defense against the junior western fanatics.

 

[nic4us]

Leonidas is out of funds. They have no relevance. They ignore the wisdom of the 9th and cling to a local judge again to give false hope. The 9th is the end game and they already opined clearly. The fanatical junior western fail to listen. The AA deal will ice their hopes of an unjust ideal. Tick Tock

Hey everybody...look here...scab Claxsucker (thanks for that Res, funniest thing ever posted on this board) has become the auditor of the AOL LLC's books, and knows how much money AOL has to spend on future legal action against an association of scabs that would disappear very shortly after any hypothetical merger.

I love that he uses Ed's picture as his avatar.......like Ed he is too caught up in himself to realize commiting a crime has its consequences.

Enjoy your day Claxypad, its all about you, carpe diem, or in your case, in consequat luctus felis.

 

[BoeingBoy]

When judge Silver comes back and says you have to use the Nicolau what are you going to do?

They'll appeal to their "saviors" on the 9th, of course. When the 9th refuses to hear an appeal, it too will become just more scum to be derided....

NYC has it all figured out. Like he did when electing USAPA was going to bury the Nic. Or when majority rule was going to bury the Nic. Or when "wide range of reasonableness" was going to bury the Nic. Or when the MDA suit was going to bury the Nic. Now the APA is going to welcome a legal battle over the Nic with open arms and save NYC's bacon....LOL...

Jim

 

[Benz M-100]

Her Leonidas proof bunker is not yet completed and the security detail not yet in place

LOL! Yeah, logistics can be a pita!

Guess we'll see before too long but I feel pretty sure that whichever way she rules, the losing side will appeal. Perpetual motion

 

[nic4us]

So you think in your little fantasy everything is going to work out for you. That the east pilots can get big fences to keep the big bad AA pilots from taking "your" positions. Life would be good for you for the next 5-10 years until you leave.

What you forget is that usapa has a duty to ALL us airways pilots not just east pilots. Negotiating like that harms the west so we would be in court for a DFR again. The APA and the company don't want that. The company does not want long expensive fences and restriction. The APA is not going to give up money in order to protect east pilots.

Keep dreaming. This is going to be put together very quickly. Using A/M rules. Relative seniority with some equipment fences. Using the Nicolau and the AA list.

When judge Silver comes back and says you have to use the Nicolau what are you going to do?

Clear I don't think Silver will tell usapa they have to use the Nic.

I think she will

leave USAPA to bargain​

in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members​

— both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe​

DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.​

2

and the company will have no part of the scab plan.

 

[nic4us]

They'll appeal to their "saviors" on the 9th, of course. When the 9th refuses to hear an appeal, it too will become just more scum to be derided....

NYC has it all figured out. Like he did when electing USAPA was going to bury the Nic. Or when majority rule was going to bury the Nic. Or when "wide range of reasonableness" was going to bury the Nic. Or when the MDA suit was going to bury the Nic. Now the APA is going to welcome a legal battle over the Nic with open arms and save NYC's bacon....LOL...

Jim

If Silver simply affirms the 9th's position...what is there to appeal for either side?

The company tell usapa to stick the DOH list up their rears, usapa petitions the NMB for release, and the NMB tells usapa to stick their DOH position up their rears and go sit in the corner til they are willing to negotiate.

 

[Benz M-100]

I still find it fascinating that many westies insist on calling easties scabs, especially given the history of AW.
Clueless and ignorant of accurate diction and historical facts.
Go ahead...rationalize and spin away though, I know you will....

 

[Portly Dorman]

I still find it fascinating that many westies insist on calling easties scabs, especially given the history of AW.
Clueless and ignorant of accurate diction and historical facts.
Go ahead...rationalize and spin away though, I know you will....

I agree, Crimi and Ray give the east a black eye too, right?

 

[Benz M-100]

Neither Crimi nor Ray ever turned a wheel tho. Does attending groundschool equate to actually WORKING the struck work? Personally I don't think it does. Having said that, I do agree with you that it looks bad. Most peeps who have had dealings with either of these guys will tell you they have worked very hard and done a good job in their union positions.