US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

You are almost entirely wrong. The Nic doesn't have to be voted in by anybody - it's already there. There is absolutely no ratification vote on the Nic. A CONTRACT has to be voted in (unless the US pilots are just included in the APA negotiated contract) for the Nic to be used. The 9th also made it clear that USAPA's seniority proposal (as opposed to the accepted Nic) did in fact harm the west.

Jim

I hate it when the 9th issues a ruling, and then it is wrong about itself! Must be totally embarassing to issue a court ruling, and be immediately proved wrong by BB!

 

[luvthe9]

The west will sleep sound tonight knowing your 99.99% average of being wrong... Spent all that money Kasher was going to make US pay you yet?

Jim

Quick Jimbo, you can be the first to answer the new thread about PIT... wow your fast.

 

[Black Swan]

Hello Nic4.

I disagree. I am with you on the harm being a consideration. But I don't think the higher court sees it the way you do. We all have our points, and flash points. Theirs being more distanced. In this day and age, a lot of people say we are all just lucky to have a job, and now AMR might mean more security for everyone, and what is the harm in that? I don't know. I just go back to the court that ruled. And they seem to be aware of the harm issue, but are not as hard wired to it as you. They seem to have said, let us wait and see what the final outcome is, then we can go there.
I see no warning or instruction whatsoever directing either party to use the Nicolau Award at all. I only see the clear statement that it may Not possibly be in the final product.


"Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3" 9th Court of Appeals, SF


So there is their opinion, as we all know. They are the party of the majority that has judicial rule in the case, and you see the harm issue is obviously still questionable in their eye. Notice they also said you may not be harmed, and the proposal might not be the Nicolau Award. So you have the court that had the final opinion make this stand, and this is why I patently reject the West contention the Nicolau has to be it. I do, however, agree with you that you cannot be run over willfully, and harmed in the definition of reasonableness. What is reasonable?

Read the 9th ruling again BB. Tell me they didn't say it. 'EVEN IF THAT PROPOSAL IS NOT THE NICOLAU AWARD' Can't wait to hear that explanation. Is it going to be "depends on what is not, is not?"

 

[BoeingBoy]

Didn't you hear?

Luvthe9, Claxon, and Black Swan are taking Mov2CLT to dinner.

I think they said ChuckE.Cheese's.

Let me guess which ones will be wearing the clown suits...

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Read the 9th ruling again BB. Tell me they didn't say it. 'EVEN IF THAT PROPOSAL IS NOT THE NICOLAU AWARD'

They did not say it!!!

They did say...3"We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA."

Plain as day. No comment that usapa does not have to use the Nic.

What you are quoting is support of why it is the other the other and only important thing 9th said..."not ripe".

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

So, if the usapa changes their stance, ( the final proposal may YET be one), usapa could end up using something advantageous to the West (does not work the disadvantages) even IF that proposal is not the Nic.....so not Ripe.

 

[traderjake]

As always your late to the game, if you were paying attention Move would like to go to KFC,he likes the extra crispy.

I stand corrected!

 

[EastCheats]

As always your late to the game, if you were paying attention Move would like to go to KFC,he likes the extra crispy.

All this time I thought you were going to use the Bojangles chicken and dirty rice method of torture. :blink:

 

[BoeingBoy]

I hate it when the 9th issues a ruling, and then it is wrong about itself! Must be totally embarassing to issue a court ruling, and be immediately proved wrong by BB!

Just repeating what the 9th said, not proving that the 9th was wrong. Read the ruling for yourself....

Oh, that's right - many easties don't read what they don't agree with. So here's the quote from the 9th:

Five months after certification, USAPA presented a seniority proposal to the airline. The proposal incorporated date-of-hire principles. Although the proposal contained some protections for West Pilots, it was not nearly as favorable to West Pilots as the Nicolau Award.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Read the 9th ruling again BB. Tell me they didn't say it. 'EVEN IF THAT PROPOSAL IS NOT THE NICOLAU AWARD' Can't wait to hear that explanation. Is it going to be "depends on what is not, is not?"

And the rest of that quote - "does not do the harm the west fears" (paraphrasing)??? So wrong again - no blanket statement that USAPA can impose any list it wants. It must submit and get a contract containing a single seniority list ratified that "does not do the harm the west fears". USAPA hasn't done that in it's existence, has it?

Thanks for demonstrating that you only read what you agree with...

Jim

 

[ClueByFour]

So what does Clue's observation about M-B timing have to do with the price of tea in China.

It means you are apparently challenged enough to not be able to follow along. Nothing more.

 

[EastUS1]

The arbitrators of the last four pilot seniority arbitrations say you're wrong.

What's your point? It seems a "bit" less than prudent to base personal morality and principles on what any others believe...even in the movies I couldn't possibly care any less if a dozen striped-arsed baboons, selected at random from the jungles and zoos of the world were polled, and all disagreed enthusiastically.

PS: Personal principles, if they ever exist in the first place, are NOT any function of what's currently "fashionable".

 

[EastUS1]

I hate it when the 9th issues a ruling, and then it is wrong about itself! Must be totally embarassing to issue a court ruling, and be immediately proved wrong by BB!

Indeed

 

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

One more thing to remember is that the TA itself states that it can be amended at any time upon agreement with the company and the CBA. Anything in the TA can be changed, min fleet counts, nic, etc.

 

[traderjake]

What's your point? It seems a "bit" less than prudent to base personal morality and principles on what any others believe...even in the movies I couldn't possibly care any less if a dozen striped-arsed baboons, selected at random from the jungles and zoos of the world were polled, and all disagreed enthusiastically.

...."thinks he is witty, does that make him clever, or just a delusional idiot?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INVoSS2thHw&feature=related

The point, Bevis, is that you're not smart enough to know you're wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Absolutely, so how much are you willing to give to get the company to agree to changing the TA? If you're still at J4J, would you be willing to give up your recall rights? If you're back would you be willing to give up company paid heath care, the DC plan, whatever. How much are you willing to give up to get that changed TA?

And if the change was detrimental to the west, as soon as the company agreed (or ratification if it went out for a vote) here comes a DFR suit...

Jim