US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

1. How did you determine that you have been around commercial aviation longer than I, and I have no disrepect for experience, just people who feel entitled due to their being hired at an airline that I particularly chose never to even attempt to find employment with.

2. You would have to help me out with the Wargocki comment. I know a Wargocki who was a young AWA pilot furloughed out of seniority who then went to Alliegent. Is that who you are taliking about, and while we are at it, two pilots apply for a job at a new airline that is going to fly md-80s. Do they hire the 58 year old USAirways furloughee who spent a career in F28 and 737, or the 38 year old Wargocki who is typed in the MD-80 with 3000hrs PIC? I would say wargocki is the more experienced pilot for the job.

3. The "lunacy" of Nicolau? Again, you do not deserve other peoples jobs, just because you are older or more experienced. Further, as a former USAir pilot, you are no more entitled to position at LCC than a former AWA pilot, particularly the vast majority of which are likely more experienced than your usapa commrades who have vastly less LOS.

1) No serious offense meant...but...umm...are you honestly trying to tell me/any that AWA was your penultimate, personal pick?....Out of all possible airline jobs?....Puh-leeeeaze. I'd thought we were speaking seriously. Nevermind then.
2) I'd think it dependent on what the airline wanted. A few thousand hours in their desired type never hurts.
3) The lunacy of nic is readily apparent. Look at just how much time we've wasted on these boards over the years, just fussing over it...much less, what it's failings have produced overall. If it were at ALL a reasonably workable scenario, well....all this internecine insanity would have been put to rest long ago.

"Again, you do not deserve other peoples jobs, just because you are older or more experienced." Nor do you, by virtue of being younger and less experienced...Your point being?

 

[EastUS1]

The point, Bevis, is that you're not smart enough to know you're wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

OK Jake....Kindly provide us all even a tiny bit of that "overwhelming evidence".....? Let's start with: Over the course of all unionized history, exactly how many seniority lists have been "integrated" by "relative" seniority. How many by DOH? You have the floor sir.

 

[algflyr]

You're also confusing official and implemented. A combined list can be official but not implemented, it just can't be implemented until it's official. Both the union (ALPA at the time) and the company agreed to it and that made it official. It just can't be implemented until there's a joint contract.

Jim

Exactly Jim. It can't be implemented until there is a joint contract. So IF there is no joint contract, do you agree that the NIC will never be used under that condition?

 

[EastUS1]

Let me guess which ones will be wearing the clown suits...

Jim

One can only assume you'll personally insist on being "The Big Cheese"/Chucky himself

 

[BoeingBoy]

3) The lunacy of nic is readily apparent. Look at just how much time we've wasted on these boards over the years, just fussing over it...much less, what it's failings have produced overall. If it were at ALL a reasonably workable scenario, well....all this internecine insanity would have been put to rest long ago.

As would be the case if the east had just accepted what they agreed to - final and binding arbitration. All the time AND MONEY wouldn't have been wasted. Not even counting the few that have made out well on their fpl + stipend for promising the moon and delivering cow pies, not even moon pies...

Jim

PS - speaking of the moon...since in all of human history mankind has only stepped on the moon a handful of times and those in recent history, the technical ability to go to the moon is in question too...

 

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

Absolutely, so how much are you willing to give to get the company to agree to changing the TA? If you're still at J4J, would you be willing to give up your recall rights? If you're back would you be willing to give up company paid heath care, the DC plan, whatever. How much are you willing to give up to get that changed TA?

And if the change was detrimental to the west, as soon as the company agreed (or ratification if it went out for a vote) here comes a DFR suit...

Jim

Who are they going to sue. APA would become the new CBA and would have had nothing to do with the TA being amended. USAPA would be long gone. As far as what would we give up, I don't know. Hopefully nothing, maybe some COC language, really don't know. The APA may not want the nic either as it puts younger folks more senior.

 

[Phoenix]

The point, Bevis, is that you're not smart enough to know you're wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

You and East make a great couple but you weren't smart enough to select Bevis for yourself. Which leaves you with...

 

[EastUS1]

PS - speaking of the moon...since in all of human history mankind has only stepped on the moon a handful of times and those in recent history, the technical ability to go to the moon is in question too...

I'll guess you just figured that the whole thing was "a fake" anyway

 

[BoeingBoy]

The APA may not want the nic either as it puts younger folks more senior.

And amazingly APA has younger members more senior than east pilots too. So they may not want DOH as much as some think...

By the time APA is the only union, the seniority list question will be answered and the company will be moving forward and not interested in revisiting the past.

Jim

 

[traderjake]

OJ Jake....Kindly provide us all even a tiny bit of that "overwhelming evidence".....? Let's start with: Over the course of all unionized history, exactly how many seniority lists have been "integrated" by "relative" seniority. How many by DOH? You have the floor sir.

In the last 20 years, 4 of 4 pilot seniority arbitrations were slotting by equipment and status.

 

[EastUS1]

In the last 20 years, 4 of 4 pilot seniority arbitrations were slotting by equipment and status.

Wonderful...now, as for ALL of union history?....Hmmm..shall we just start with the AFA, for example?...Teamsters?...Coal Miners?...ANY/All others?....Or; doesn't anything other than your magical 4 count?

Bottom line = Try telling ANYONE in ANY semblance of a serious union that it's all just "relative"...Get back to us all on how that works for you.

 

[traderjake]

Wonderful...now, as for ALL of union history?....Hmmm..shall we just start with the AFA, for example?...Teamsters?....Or; doesn't anything other than your magical 4 count?

You left out blacksmiths and buggy whip makers.

 

[Piedmont1984]

In the last 20 years, 4 of 4 pilot seniority arbitrations were slotting by equipment and status.

BECAUSE - length of service was not trampled upon in the process, at least in the case of the legacy mergers.

 

[EastUS1]

You left out buggy whip makers.

I'd thought such covered by the the term "ALL", but; Do make an historical case for them integrating in any "relative" fashion, now that you make mention

 

[Black Swan]

Just repeating what the 9th said, not proving that the 9th was wrong. Read the ruling for yourself....

Oh, that's right - many easties don't read what they don't agree with. So here's the quote from the 9th:

Five months after certification, USAPA presented a seniority proposal to the airline. The proposal incorporated date-of-hire principles. Although the proposal contained some protections for West Pilots, it was not nearly as favorable to West Pilots as the Nicolau Award.

Jim

Yes, they made that correct observation. Their legal opinion absolutely made it patently clear the Nic does NOT have to be the list.