US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Good question. If a given union is compelled by it's CBLs to do otherwise than what would be easily acceptable to those...well...any thoughts there? Why would the APA have any actual say as to what list or lists would be provided? Doesn't arbitration, by it's very nature, presume adversarial positions? Does saying "we don't like that list because we might get sued" supply any legal defense?

Are you somehow under the false impression that union C&BL override federal law? If Judge Silver says use the Nicolau or get sued there is not an arbitrator in the country that would force that on a company or another union. If you think that the C&BL are so restrictive how is usapa going to negotiate prior to arbitration and what position does that put usapa in during the arbitration if they are forced to stand on a single method? Do you think we could see a repeat of the Nicolau where the east is extremely unhappy with the results?

The last merger the company had 5 restriction that they had to have before they would accept a list. If the company says it has to be the Nicolau or we will not except the list. Any list has to have min. C&R that do not cost us money. How does the minority usapa force the company and APA to accept expensive C&R to make the list work?

Once again I will say most rational people when faced with a law suit that will cost them money and lots of time will avoid the activity that will get them sued. Parker wants this deal done quickly. He is not going to let a bunch of emotional whiners delay his deal. The APA is the majority, he will deal with them and cut out usapa. what does usapa do if APA refuses to accept 3 US Airways (east, west and new hire) lists as the certified lists?

You all accused Nicolau of being lazy and not doing the job and taking the easy way out. What do you think the arbitrator would rather deal with. Two lists, the Nicolau and the AA list or trying to figure out how to put together 4 lists with new hires hired after furloughed AA pilots, furloughed west pilots senior to all the new hires and a lot of the east pilots? Taking a page from the usapa play book in that situation what part of the list is going to be hurt the most top or bottom? So the bottom of the AA list screams and cries like the east did. The APA are the majority this time and they use that majority to impose their own list.

Or the APA and the company says this is the single list combine them up. Now it is easy to justify and explain why the furloughed AA pilots are behind active new hires and the furloughed west pilots are senior to the furloughed AA pilots.

One last thing. Using A/M the company unlike last time is involved with the seniority integration this go around. Supposed the company shows up with one list, the Nicolau and tells the arbitrator we have accepted one single seniority list for the company called US Airways. That is our certified list. Use that one. What is usapa going to do? Will they walk away mumbling "it's not fair"?

 

[cleardirect]

Looks like COC will be activated, http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/701345/000095015307002500/p74691exv10w4.htm Hummel and the compass miscorrection boys would be in a world of hurt from this pilot group to give that one up. If we don't get it manangement does not get it.!!!!!

That form says America West. Did the last transaction trigger your CofC? NO???? why not?

Check with the MX's they went to court and lost that argument. Do you really think Parker is that stupid that he has not figured out a way around your CofC. After all usapa handed him the answer. Go read the usapa filings and see if you can figure out how he is going to do it.

There is not going to be any CofC. Just like Kasher Parker is not going to pay.

 

[700UW]

Maintenance didnt go to court on the COC, it went to arbitration.

 

[cleardirect]

Maintenance didnt go to court on the COC, it went to arbitration.

I stand corrected.

 

[Move2CLT]

Looks like COC will be activated, http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/701345/000095015307002500/p74691exv10w4.htm Hummel and the compass miscorrection boys would be in a world of hurt from this pilot group to give that one up. If we don't get it manangement does not get it.!!!!!

Claxon Jr.

At it again.

How did CoC go for you the last merger?

Your east pilots are laughing at you.

 

[Phoenix]

Are you somehow under the false impression that union C&BL override federal law? If Judge Silver says use the Nicolau or get sued there is not an arbitrator in the country that would force that on a company or another union. If you think that the C&BL are so restrictive how is usapa going to negotiate prior to arbitration and what position does that put usapa in during the arbitration if they are forced to stand on a single method? Do you think we could see a repeat of the Nicolau where the east is extremely unhappy with the results?

The last merger the company had 5 restriction that they had to have before they would accept a list. If the company says it has to be the Nicolau or we will not except the list. Any list has to have min. C&R that do not cost us money. How does the minority usapa force the company and APA to accept expensive C&R to make the list work?

Once again I will say most rational people when faced with a law suit that will cost them money and lots of time will avoid the activity that will get them sued. Parker wants this deal done quickly. He is not going to let a bunch of emotional whiners delay his deal. The APA is the majority, he will deal with them and cut out usapa. what does usapa do if APA refuses to accept 3 US Airways (east, west and new hire) lists as the certified lists?

You all accused Nicolau of being lazy and not doing the job and taking the easy way out. What do you think the arbitrator would rather deal with. Two lists, the Nicolau and the AA list or trying to figure out how to put together 4 lists with new hires hired after furloughed AA pilots, furloughed west pilots senior to all the new hires and a lot of the east pilots? Taking a page from the usapa play book in that situation what part of the list is going to be hurt the most top or bottom? So the bottom of the AA list screams and cries like the east did. The APA are the majority this time and they use that majority to impose their own list.

Or the APA and the company says this is the single list combine them up. Now it is easy to justify and explain why the furloughed AA pilots are behind active new hires and the furloughed west pilots are senior to the furloughed AA pilots.

One last thing. Using A/M the company unlike last time is involved with the seniority integration this go around. Supposed the company shows up with one list, the Nicolau and tells the arbitrator we have accepted one single seniority list for the company called US Airways. That is our certified list. Use that one. What is usapa going to do? Will they walk away mumbling "it's not fair"?

Take it easy on the bandwidth, bro. Brevity is the word for today. Tranquility is tomorrows word, and dissertation is not back until 2016.

 

[cleardirect]

Take it easy on the bandwidth, bro. Brevity is the word for today. Tranquility is tomorrows word, and dissertation is not back until 2016.

Learn it. Know it. Live it.
Fast Times at Ridgemont High

Brief enough?

 

[Black Swan]

Take it easy on the bandwidth, bro. Brevity is the word for today. Tranquility is tomorrows word, and dissertation is not back until 2016.

Seeing the maintenance, f/a, customer service and pretty much every other group has merged amicably and successfully with what looks like DOH, and the pilots have failed to agree- It would appear the other groups are prepared to uniformly go forward into the AMR potential merger with a position. What they ultimately end up with is unknown. But they had a position going forward. What makes the pilots unique is the fact there has not been an agreement that allowed a singular position going forward. My opinion is it will be a start over, with USAPA on one end, and APA on the other. Very hard to go with the idea of an unconsummated merger in total contention being the position going forward. It will most likely be USAPA and its' position and the APA and theirs. USAPA is going to have to go forward with its' position, regardless of past differences and unresolved outcomes, and face the APA, or work with the APA. My opinion. It is much easier for a judge to let it go down this way, in light of what has transpired. Had there been a joint CBA, it would have been totally different, but there has not been one.

 

[Metroyet]

Why would the APA have any actual say as to what list or lists would be provided?

Because they're not dumb enough to welcome a proven dfr liability into their union. Nic. Is getting passed to APA and there isn't a damn thing USTUPID can do about it.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

looks like the company went to USAPA this morning wanting relief in the EAST COC provision ! this is the executive COC provision! http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/701345/000095015307002500/p74691exv10w4.htm

 

[700UW]

Better go back and read it again, it has to do with Executives and their contracts, not union employees and their CBAs.

 

[cleardirect]

Seeing the maintenance, f/a, customer service and pretty much every other group has merged amicably and successfully with what looks like DOH, and the pilots have failed to agree- It would appear the other groups are prepared to uniformly go forward into the AMR potential merger with a position. What they ultimately end up with is unknown. But they had a position going forward. What makes the pilots unique is the fact there has not been an agreement that allowed a singular position going forward. My opinion is it will be a start over, with USAPA on one end, and APA on the other. Very hard to go with the idea of an unconsummated merger in total contention being the position going forward. It will most likely be USAPA and its' position and the APA and theirs. USAPA is going to have to go forward with its' position, regardless of past differences and unresolved outcomes, and face the APA, or work with the APA. My opinion. It is much easier for a judge to let it go down this way, in light of what has transpired. Had there been a joint CBA, it would have been totally different, but there has not been one.

You and usapa's opinion was alos that the RICO case was a winner, that Kasher was going to pay, the MDA case was going to end the Nicolau and that the east pilots did not have an illegal job action last summer. All of those opinions were wrong. So You thinking that you get a redo on seniority falls into that category of you are wrong.

 

[nic4us]

Seeing the maintenance, f/a, customer service and pretty much every other group has merged amicably and successfully with what looks like DOH, and the pilots have failed to agree- It would appear the other groups are prepared to uniformly go forward into the AMR potential merger with a position. What they ultimately end up with is unknown. But they had a position going forward. What makes the pilots unique is the fact there has not been an agreement that allowed a singular position going forward. My opinion is it will be a start over, with USAPA on one end, and APA on the other. Very hard to go with the idea of an unconsummated merger in total contention being the position going forward. It will most likely be USAPA and its' position and the APA and theirs. USAPA is going to have to go forward with its' position, regardless of past differences and unresolved outcomes, and face the APA, or work with the APA. My opinion. It is much easier for a judge to let it go down this way, in light of what has transpired. Had there been a joint CBA, it would have been totally different, but there has not been one.

Ah,,but there is a joint contract in the TA. It also ties the company BTW.

If usapa were to pass any list other than the Nic in a future seniority integration, they have "effected" the harm the West pilots fearand the DFR is ripe.

In other words, the usapa DOH list has never been ratified in a CBA or arrived at via contractual commitment. It has exactly zero validity in any dealings between east and West integration. east posters keep spouting the Nic was never ratified,,,well, neither was a DOH list. The usapa constitution an bylaws means squat in this matter and is the very basis on which a DFR would be prosecuted and likely lost by usapa.

 

[Black Swan]

Ah,,but there is a joint contract in the TA. It also ties the company BTW.

If usapa were to pass any list other than the Nic in a future seniority integration, they have "effected" the harm the West pilots fearand the DFR is ripe.

In other words, the usapa DOH list has never been ratified in a CBA or arrived at via contractual commitment. It has exactly zero validity in any dealings between east and West integration. east posters keep spouting the Nic was never ratified,,,well, neither was a DOH list. The usapa constitution an bylaws means squat in this matter and is the very basis on which a DFR would be prosecuted and likely lost by usapa.

Hello Nic4.

I disagree. I am with you on the harm being a consideration. But I don't think the higher court sees it the way you do. We all have our points, and flash points. Theirs being more distanced. In this day and age, a lot of people say we are all just lucky to have a job, and now AMR might mean more security for everyone, and what is the harm in that? I don't know. I just go back to the court that ruled. And they seem to be aware of the harm issue, but are not as hard wired to it as you. They seem to have said, let us wait and see what the final outcome is, then we can go there.
I see no warning or instruction whatsoever directing either party to use the Nicolau Award at all. I only see the clear statement that it may Not possibly be in the final product.


"Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3" 9th Court of Appeals, SF


So there is their opinion, as we all know. They are the party of the majority that has judicial rule in the case, and you see the harm issue is obviously still questionable in their eye. Notice they also said you may not be harmed, and the proposal might not be the Nicolau Award. So you have the court that had the final opinion make this stand, and this is why I patently reject the West contention the Nicolau has to be it. I do, however, agree with you that you cannot be run over willfully, and harmed in the definition of reasonableness. What is reasonable?

 

[EastUS1]

Nic. Is getting passed to APA and there isn't a damn thing USTUPID can do about it.

"Nic. Is getting passed to APA..." OK. By what agency/who?