US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

slowly eastus1, the TA is the LEGAL Pistol at a CBA (alpa, usapa, apa) and the Company via my ability to sue either if not followed to the letter.

OK...evidently I wasn't going sufficiently slowly for you. Given that USAPA would/will cease existing with a merger, and essentially the last actions of that union would be forwarding list(s); what direct concerns are afforded any entity so soon to be gone? Who do you sue then? I'm curious.

 

[cleardirect]

What would force them to do so? The nic stands in direct violation of the union's constitution and by laws....Just asking here..
Was it not the vaunted alpa that provided the lists for integration at US/AWA?

What would force them to use the Nicolau? Judge Silver. the company and APA avoiding a law suit.

So you are saying that usapa can not ask for anything but DOH? When we go into arbitration the merger committee will be hog tied to a single position?

How did that strategy work out last time?

 

[fodase]

When did you make your last bid based on it?

Why can't we bid using the nic.? Isn't it because the ta requires a single contract in order to use it? Why is it then that the ta requirement for a single contract is binding yet the Nic. which is part of the same ta is not? This is exactly what the company has told the court, usapa does not get to pick and choose which parts it has to honor.

We could go around and around indefinitely, and none of us determine any eventual outcomes....as only time will tell. I've yet to receive an answer to that basic question though: What would FORCE the union to pass the nic list? I'm honestly curious as to any thoughts on that.

Because it's a legally mandated list in the ta, if they don't use it they break the law.

 

[cleardirect]

Why was it so tough just answering: "What would force them to do so?" Who submits seniority list(s) to any arbitrator(s)?
Per your 2: What does "before usapa has a contract" have to do with this? Are you really trying to assert that APA would pick, choose and submit any/all lists, and thus be essentially arbitrating with themselves?

It's all a rather unique set of circumstances. I guess we'll have to wait and see how it all plays out, assuming this merger happens of course, which I believe, more likely than not, will take place.

Why can't APA negotitate with themselves? That is what you guys have wanted from the west. You wanted usapa to negotiate with usapa west members.

Beginning to understand that all of your arguments that the east has been making fall apart when applied to another situation

 

[EastUS1]

What would force them to use the Nicolau? Judge Silver. the company and APA avoiding a law suit.

So...the company and APA determine the list(s) to be used for the US side and submit them to any arbitrator(s)?........?

 

[usabusdriver]

Because the APA, with its vast majority over USAPA, is going to become your union without a vote. And with that union comes its contract.

Not True. See AFA v USAir. It has been repeatedly quoted in the DJ litigation briefs.

“If the employees designate a new collective bargaining representative, it succeeds to the status of the former representative without alteration in the contract terms.”

 

[fodase]

So...the company and APA determine the list(s) to be used for the US side and submit them to any arbitrator(s)?........?

How do they determine the list? Out of thin air? Just make one up? Is there one that already exists?

 

[Phoenix]

So...the company and APA determine the list(s) to be used for the US side and submit them to any arbitrator(s)?........?

Nic4Us, having proprietary ownership of the Nic handle, is the one solely able to dispose, discharge, or decimate the Nic list. (but only in that realm wherein his/her handle applies.) In the real world, that is a very good question which probably isn't all that complicated, merger smerger, notwithstanding.

 

[EastUS1]

How do they determine the list? Out of thin air? Just make one up?

Purely theoretical and just for the sake of discussion; what FORCES them to do otherwise?...The threat of suit against the union as it ceases to exist?

 

[fodase]

A question for all easties:
We cannot use the Nic. until we have a single contract, this is so because the ta mandates it, correct?

If the part of the TA that requires a single contract in place to use the seniority list is currently valid, why do you believe the part of the same TA that requires the Nic. is not valid?

 

[fodase]

Purely theoretical and just for the sake of discussion; what FORCES them to do otherwise?...The threat of suit against the union as it ceases to exist?

What forces you to work under loa 93? what forces you to get paid your hourly rate? what forces usapa to file grievances if they disagree with the company on contract interpretation? what forces separate ops until ta is ratified? The answer is the same forthese questions as it is to yours

 

[fodase]

A question for all easties:
We cannot use the Nic. until we have a single contract, this is so because the ta mandates it, correct?

If the part of the TA that requires a single contract in place to use the seniority list is currently valid, why do you believe the part of the same TA that requires the Nic. is not valid?

 

[OTTER574]

OK...evidently I wasn't going sufficiently slowly for you. Given that USAPA would/will cease existing with a merger, and essentially the last actions of that union would be forwarding list(s); what direct concerns are afforded any entity so soon to be gone? Who do you sue then? I'm curious.

Alpa ceased here and usapa INHERITED all my agreements with the Company which includes the TA...APA will be the same if we merge. MUST inherit all of my agreements/contract to ENFORCE or face UNQUESTIONABLE RIPE DFR along with the Company as co-defendants in regards to the NIC. Of course a new contract with the Company and APA/usapa/alpa/ibt will LEGALLY implement the NIC via MY TA..... skyking.....

I'm curious us1..? You really do not understand this yet do you? My hired CBA MUST enforce my contract with the Company.

OTTER

 

[cleardirect]

So...the company and APA determine the list(s) to be used for the US side and submit them to any arbitrator(s)?........?

No. But the list has to be certified. If the company and APA refuse to accept anything other than the Nicolau what do you do then?

What if the company refuses to accept any C&R that usapa demands? Remember the 5 items the company required for our merger? The company can state the Nicolau must be used. The can refuse any C&R making the list unfair or unacceptable.

Remember the term a proposal until accepted by the company? Imagine the company refuses to accept a list because of law suit? What does usapa do?

Parker has learned a few things dealing with the east. He is not going to allow east pilots to screw up or delay his deal.

 

[Phoenix]

A question for all easties:
We cannot use the Nic. until we have a single contract, this is so because the ta mandates it, correct?

If the part of the TA that requires a single contract in place to use the seniority list is currently valid, why do you believe the part of the same TA that requires the Nic. is not valid?

It is not a matter of what is valid. Its a matter of what is negotiable. If you would like to use the Nic now, it is negotiable.