US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

Not without a ratified contract. It has been 'accepted' but not implemented.
Besides, the pilot group was/is supposed to get a shiny new contract in return for implementing the list, which enables the company to exercise its synergies by mixing crews and aircraft as one fleet.
No contract, no list - whatever it is.
Cheers.

Pullup,

According to the company, you are completely wrong.

Which part of this don' t you understand?

The fact that the Nicolau Award has not yet been implemented does not change the fact
that the Transition Agreement contains a commitment to the Nicolau Award, and such
contractual commitment is therefore part of the status quo.

 

[Move2CLT]

... you won't be getting item 7. sorry.

Ahhh, yes, just like it was a slam dunk that Kasher would pay, right luv?

 

[Move2CLT]

What if the west abandons its Nic argument in exchange for the elimination of the 517 exclusion zone?

Seems to me that a 3 way SLI allows the east to rid themselves of the Nic and the west to rid themselves of the 517 clause - which may benefit the west more in a slotted scenario with APA.

Give it a rest. The 517 went away with age 65 so there's nothing there to eliminate.

And there is NO WEST to abandon anything. How many times do you have to be told this. The only CBA any US Airways pilot has is USAPA.

The TWO WAY integration will include the Nic and the APA's list - nothing more.

 

[Move2CLT]

Move,

Unbelievable, please tell me you made this up.

This is right up there with the update I saw from CLT. Something about, I know we're at $124/hr, but let's not jump on this $172/hr, because our COC will give us $212/hr. How on God's great earth is it possible for people to be this stupid? Maybe, it's not stupidity, but a total disconnect from reality? It's like receiving updates from the Care Bears in La La Land.

Bean

I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried and I sure as hell couldn't keep up with the east stuff.

Its all them. They're just putting this great stuff out so all I have to do is cut and paste.

 

[cleardirect]

You will come out better without the NIC using relative position.

Why are you concerned? If the west comes out better that would mean the east would come out worse using relative right? You guys should be demanding the Nicolau if that were the case,

 

[flyingskier]

Here we go Claxon. A timeline even you can understand:

1. Modified list submitted by USAPA for SLI
2. Said list rejected by company and APA
3. Nicolau substituted
4. Two way integration begins
5. Twenty day time limit expires, no extension granted.
6. Arbitration ensues
7. New SLI award based on relative seniority using Nicolau and the APA lists with equipment fences.
8. AA emerges from bankruptcy
9. SCC declared and APA becomes CBA without a vote due to its size relative to USAPA
10. US Airways pilots became APA members and AA pilots under new contract negotiated by APA.

The End.

First of all, the new contract and pay rates will be in place immediately upon consummation of the merger, or the merger will not happen. Then the SLI will begin.

11. (if by some miracle the above 10 would happen) If the East loses in Silver's court, the East continues the appeal all the way to the SCOTUS.
12. East formed AOL files suite to stop the NIC.

ENDLESS!

Sorry, no Move to CLT, you are Still Fenced to PHX!



Skier

 

[FL430]

Who said anything about USAPA negotiating seniority? You do realized this is going to arbitration, right?

You do remember USAPA is your CBA don't you? Who says it has to go to arbritration?
What do you think they are going to talk about at USAPA HQ at 9:00 am April 30th?

 

[nic4us]

OK fodase, how about this:

I will call my reps and tell them to accept the Nic. Tell them to negotiate seniority with the APA and give them the top 2017 positions for their larger numbers of widebodies. East senior pilots get the next 517 on the combined list due to their widebodies brought to the merger. Then slotting the rest of the way down with a formula that gives pilots credit for years of service, current status, and date of hire. That way APA furloughees and former east furloughees do not get hosed this time. This way the lists do not even get into the hands of an arbitrator. You can then direct AOL to sue USAPA who will no longer exist in about six months for all they are worth. The APA is happy too because USAPA accepted the Nic just like it calls for in the previous transition agreement.

Fair enough?

I had to read this twice to understand your logic.....

My first mistake was thinking there was any logic involved.

So, your premise is to have usapa "accept" the Nic, yet reorder seniority for LCC pilots during a merger integration?


AOL would not bother suing usapa in your fantasy scenario. The named defendants would be usapa, the APA, and the airline parties in existance at the time.

Collusion in an illegal enterprise would be a really bad place for the corporation or the APA to go. I think they are both smart enough to not let the about to disappear scab union hand them the bag.

 

[cleardirect]

...And if you actually BELIEVED in relative position, as being ANY semblance of a guiding PRINCIPLE, I would think you'd be the first to endorse a "snapshot at the time of the merger", instead of some never used piece of paper

Why was the list never used? Because east pilots whined and cried and delayed it's use.

 

[cleardirect]

What if the west abandons its Nic argument in exchange for the elimination of the 517 exclusion zone?

Seems to me that a 3 way SLI allows the east to rid themselves of the Nic and the west to rid themselves of the 517 clause - which may benefit the west more in a slotted scenario with APA.

Except that puts 700 furloughed at the time senior to west pilots. I accepted the 517. It is time the east accepts the furloughed pilots at the bottom.

 

[Move2CLT]

First of all, the new contract and pay rates will be in place immediately upon consummation of the merger, or the merger will not happen. Then the SLI will begin.

11. (if by some miracle the above 10 would happen) If the East loses in Silver's court, the East continues the appeal all the way to the SCOTUS.
12. East formed AOL files suite to stop the NIC.

ENDLESS!

Sorry, no Move to CLT, you are Still Fenced to PHX!



Skier

No skier, not even close.

Until the APA's becomes our CBA, we don't see their contract until we become APA. You'll find that no of your cohorts hear agree with you (other then the lemming types).

Once AA emerges from bankruptcy, a SCC is declared and we go from there.

And an east formed AoL? You guys barely made USAPA work!! And you have no basis for which to sue so good luck getting an injunction. While you're getting money put together, this merger will continue.

I'll be in CLT by 2013-14!!! Looking forward to Davidson.

Appeal to SCOTUS? Ya, that'll go really far. <_<

 

[Move2CLT]

Who says it has to go to arbritration?

The APA.

 

[EastUS1]

AOL would not bother suing usapa in your fantasy scenario. The named defendants would be usapa, the APA, and the airline parties in existance at the time.

"AOL would not bother suing usapa in your fantasy scenario. The named defendants would be usapa,....." Ummm.....Huh?

 

[flyingskier]

Maybe, but I think the better way of saying it would be the West would not lose position relative to the east.

Imagine this....we go into arbitration using 3 LCC lists to be integrated with the APA list. east, West, newhire.

The West first arguement to the arbitrator is simple. No west pilot should be placed on the combined list below an east pilot who was below them on the Nic, regardless of any fencing that might take place.

I am thinking an arbitrator would be inclined to agree that an arbitrated result is both final and binding, and therefore see the West's position as completely logical, therefore granted in the final award.


It is a bad strategy however, because although the West would not lose anything relative to the east, all LCC pilots could lose in the bigger picture as the east tries to outsmart the system and gain at West expense, while we all are brought to lower status, as the east arguements for why the West should be placed at lower status would actually apply to all LCC pilots in the arbitrators mind, and we all get moved down a combined list.

The three lists are:

1. American top to bottom including furloughed

2. East including new hires

3. West, including furloughed

APA is going to try and crush us anyway they can! A Nic integration would be much harder for APA to get a favorable SLI than using the three lists separately. The West only has six 757's, all the rest are narrow bodies. The East retires 2000 in the next eight years, a seven year fence will work just fine. The slotted integration that you guys want so bad will take your age and AC into account.

The APA has done an analysis of the three groups and the biggest problem is the West group, because they are so young. You'll get your chance, you just have to wait in line like everyone else.

Skier

 

[Move2CLT]

The three lists are:

1. American top to bottom including furloughed

2. East including new hires

3. West, including furloughed

APA is going to try and crush us anyway they can! A Nic integration would be much harder for APA to get a favorable SLI than using the three lists separately. The West only has six 757's, all the rest are narrow bodies. The East retires 2000 in the next eight years, a seven year fence will work just fine. The slotted integration that you guys want so bad will take your age and AC into account.

The APA has done an analysis of the three groups and the biggest problem is the West group, because they are so young. You'll get your chance, you just have to wait in line like everyone else.

Skier

Holy crap are you way off!

The APA doesn't care what list we give them. Their lawyer stated that it would go relative seniority - did you need that posted?

Two lists:

Nicolau

APA.

Combined relatively with equipment fences.

The end.