US Pilots Labor Discussion

[traderjake]

Four seniority arbitrations in a row say your wrong.

USAPA is trying to steal jobs from the West

I'm not going to help you do it.

You guys made this mess, I've got better thing to do with my time than help you clean it up.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Four seniority arbitrations in a row say your wrong.

USAPA is trying to steal jobs from the West

I'm not going to help you do it.

You guys made this mess, I've got better thing to do with my time than help you clean it up.

Thousands of OTHER seniority arbitrations that are NOT pilots say YOUR wrong!!

Oh, holier than thou pilots, I genuflect to your GODLINESS and your all knowing, all seeing wisdom! I worked 24 years here, furlough pilots are entitled to the value of their voice, thier VOTE and their years of service. If YOU feel that way why don't YOU give up YOUR job so a furloughed West Pilot can have it???? You are a POMPUS A$$ and a hippocryte.

Again, confirming what I've been told about you. USAPA, ALPA, SWAPA, APA, etc....ALL PILOTS!!! PILOTS MADE THIS MESS! Get out of your own feces, wipe your face off and get real, traitor!

 

[traderjake]

Thousands of OTHER seniority arbitrations that are NOT pilots say YOUR wrong!!

You know what's worse than being wrong?

Being too metally challenged to see it when it's pointed out by overwhelming evidence.

By the way, we are pilots.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So, Jim, enlighten me. What part do YOU speak of?

I'll let you figure it out... It should be as plain as the nose on your face...

I don't know about the "Let My Daddy Vote" sign, however, are you one that wishes to DENY pilots the right to vote?

That probably means it was your kid then...

As far as case law, I can predict the outcome BASED ON THE RECORD, and I ASSURE YOU I have read, briefed AND presented the very legal arguments that are before the court and REJECTED by the Ninth Circuit.

So why are you wasting your valuable time here counselor? Oh, right, you were on the losing side. Well, a claim on an anonymous web forum doesn't a good lawyer make so I think I'll wait for the real experts.

As far as the PHX crew news, why don't you listen to the last two minutes of Parker with the title "this i'snt about $1,500". It starts with "let me get to this thought"...

You're a little slow tonight - I've already said that I have listened to it. 😛

Jim, you "parrot" what Jacobs law firm throws out yet you do NO legal work for yourself.

Oh I do my research - legal work, isn't that what lawyers (good ones) are for? For instance, the AFL isn't a union (and you claim to be so smart ). Neither is the CIO. So don't quit your day job...

As I've said before (so pay attention in the future), the Mississippi Valley/Air Wisconsin pilot integration is the closest I've found where employees fall under the NMB. Not exact, but close.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Thousands of OTHER seniority arbitrations that are NOT pilots say YOUR wrong!!

And that is the distinction - NOT pilots. If you want to merge like the AFA, become a F/A. IAM? Become a mechanic. UAW? Become an auto worker. You want to be treated like non-pilots - quit and get a non-pilot job somewhere else.

Jim

 

[end_of_alpa]

I'll let you figure it out... It should be as plain as the nose on your face...



That probably means it was your kid then...



So why are you wasting your valuable time here counselor? Oh, right, you were on the losing side. Well, a claim on an anonymous web forum doesn't a good lawyer make so I think I'll wait for the real experts.



You're a little slow tonight - I've already said that I have listened to it. 😛



Oh I do my research - legal work, isn't that what lawyers (good ones) are for? For instance, the AFL isn't a union (and you claim to be so smart ). Neither is the CIO. So don't quit your day job...

As I've said before (so pay attention in the future), the Mississippi Valley/Air Wisconsin pilot integration is the closest I've found where employees fall under the NMB. Not exact, but close.

Jim

The American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO) is a voluntary federation of 55 national and international labor unions. The AFL-CIO was created in 1955 by the merger of the AFL and the CIO.

The AFL-CIO union movement represents 12.2 million members, including 3.2 million members in Working America, its community affiliate. We are teachers and miners, firefighters and farm workers, bakers and engineers, pilots and public employees, doctors and nurses, painters and plumbers—and more.

In 2009, delegates to the 26th AFL-CIO Constitutional Convention elected Richard Trumka as president and Liz Shuler as secretary-treasurer. Arlene Holt Baker was re-elected as executive vice president.

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutus/

Losing side?

So far, no Nicolau list. IF NICOLAU EVER COMES TO FRUITION, I'LL BE MOST LIKELY ON MY LAST REMAINING YEARS HERE.

So, Jim, that's the only case and I just refuted YOURS! Oh, BTW, AW vs Sanderson does NOT support the West premise like they THINK....the good standing provisions of ANY CBA does not apply to furloughed employees in the same craft or class when it comes to furlough and recall rights. That is EXACTLY what Judge Posner mean't in his "dicta", even assuming, arguendo, that the dicta being quoted is even VALID in the first place. A unions Constitution, NOR can it's side letters or agreements trump LMRDA, where the good standing provisions of any unions constitution can prevent those same furloughed individuals from havinf a voice AND participating with their VOTE!

You, the tyranny of the MINORITY, is what you have always been about and it with THAT that debating YOU and Traitor Jak have proven my point....you NEVER address my facts.

You are right, here though. Why are ANY of the East pilots participating here, well, PARTICIPATING HERE???

These are people where case law, LMRDA, logic, has no meaning...more to the point, they don't get it. And don't waste your time here anymore.

Jim is jerking your chain and Traitor Jak is, well, ......NOTHING!

 

[end_of_alpa]

And that is the distinction - NOT pilots. If you want to merge like the AFA, become a F/A. IAM? Become a mechanic. UAW? Become an auto worker. You want to be treated like non-pilots - quit and get a non-pilot job somewhere else.

Jim

And there you have it!! Children of a lesser god.

The "I've got mine because I'M A PILOT"!!!

Jim puts his pants on differently than you!

If you're not white like Jim, then go to the back of the bus, darkie.

You female, stay at home barefoot and pregnant.

Old, (like Jim), put him to sleep.

Handicapped, he/she's worthless to society so let's just send them to a gulag.

Jewish, how about the final solution.


Jim, the GREAT AND WONDERFUL OZ!

You need to look behind the curtain, you have issues!

And with that, I bid adieu again. I have a real job. Jim's got nothing but this. And can't even respond to my arguments.

I pity you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO) is a voluntary federation of 55 national and international labor unions.

Like I said, neither the AFL or CIO is a union. So your point?

Losing side?

Didn't you say that you had "read, briefed AND presented the very legal arguments that are before the court and REJECTED by the Ninth Circuit." If you presented the arguments rejected by the 9th, it sounds like you were on the losing side.

So, Jim, that's the only case and I just refuted YOURS!

Well, I've seen a lot or rhetoric and hot air, but refuting? Unless you mean a case you can't remember where both side belonged to the AFL "union" and the majority then voted in the CIO "union"...well, let's just say you demonstrate ignorance and emotion more than anything else. Oh, and using CAPS doesn't change anything - it just shows your desperation.

What's that saying...oh yes, stupid can't be fixed...

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

And there you have it!! Children of a lesser god.

The "I've got mine because I'M A PILOT"!!!

Jim puts his pants on differently than you!

If you're not white like Jim, then go to the back of the bus, darkie.

You female, stay at home barefoot and pregnant.

Old, (like Jim), put him to sleep.

Handicapped, he/she's worthless to society so let's just send them to a gulag.

Jewish, how about the final solution.


Jim, the GREAT AND WONDERFUL OZ!

You need to look behind the curtain, you have issues!

And with that, I bid adieu again. I have a real job. Jim's got nothing but this. And can't even respond to my arguments.

I pity you.

Going off the deep end I see... 😛 Maybe you should learn to swim first...

Jim

 

[767one]

**********************

Hey Bob,

I hope after DEC 2012 I never see you on this board!!!!

Jim quotes that life has never been better and he enjoys retirement... Hell of a way to enjoy retirement .. spending every day on this board... Heck I work here and I'm not here that much!

Crazy,

I hope you're right. Once I leave here I get pretty much nothing from the airline and my only interest will be to keep in touch with my old friends and that is better done on a more personal level than these forums.

Regards,

Bob

 

[crazystnic]

Crazy,

I hope you're right. Once I leave here I get pretty much nothing from the airline and my only interest will be to keep in touch with my old friends and that is better done on a more personal level than these forums.

Regards,

Bob

Bob, My Dad ex Real EAL retired at 55 early before the strike... He never flew an airplane again... and had no interest... even though he had started flying over 30 years before that... He did have a rich life and loved working in his woodshop... best,

 

[Freebird]

USAPAwatch: Schizophrenic
By now you have probably seen one of the yellow lanyards worn by some east pilots screaming "Safety First" to anyone who will listen. As we've previously discussed we believe these lanyards to be component of a larger job action orchestrated by USAPA.

Tomorrow, USAPA plans a so called “solidarity march” at the Philadelphia Airport as part of their greater strategy of frightening the general public using manufactured safety concerns. They naively believe that disrupting the operation and encouraging people to book away from our airline will somehow compel Mr. Parker to open his wallet and offer an industry standard contract. The last time we checked, the highest paid airline pilots in the world fly for the most financially stable companies. Illegally harming the airline and jeopardizing the livelihoods of all US Airways employees is not only reckless but a recipe destined for disaster. Like you, we were baffled by the following statement in USAPA's plea for participation in their planned Philadelphia march:

"As we get closer to the end game at the negotiating table, it's the perfect time for this public display of solidarity."

Did we miss something? We've combed the most recent NAC updates and can find absolutely no evidence that progress is being made at the negotiating table. In fact, most of the recent updates by the NAC complain about their inability to make any forward movement on even the most trivial of issues. The tone conveyed by First Officer D'Iorio is best described as one of resignation as his committee is continually outmaneuvered by a far superior management negotiating team. Far from an end game, it seems we are moving ever so closer to the parking lot. Progress by The NAC is measured by the size of the concessions given to appease the mediator, not gains achieved.

Many believe that USAPA isn't interested in achieving a contract. The theory is that the junior segment of the east seniority list is driving a plan to delay negotiations as much as possible in order to "upgrade" via attrition once age 65 retirements start. They ignore the financial foolishness of this plan as their separate operations career expectation would only afford a small minority of this subset a move from the right seat of a narrow body to the right seat of a wide body. Our industry peers flying narrow body aircraft already out earn every single east wide body pilot. The notion that there will be enough captain and narrow body FO seats available for the majority of the junior first officers is wishful thinking on behalf of this group. It's unfortunate that USAPA is concealing the reality that our retirement numbers are not stove pipe and the financial cost of this strategy is staggering.

There is also a faction of east pilots who believe USAPA's propaganda that the seniority dispute was resolved by the 9th Circuit. They subscribe to the notion that walking in circles in Philadelphia will translate into progress at the negotiating table. They also believe in the fantasy that USAPA is capable of completing a contract. They completely dismiss or know little about the Company's lawsuit filed in Federal Court against both USAPA and the west pilots. They ignore the reality that the Company is legally bound to the terms of the Transition Agreement and will never bargain away from the Nicolau list unless given complete immunity from the courts. The likelihood of court ordered immunity is just south of zero.

If you plan on attending USAPA's march tomorrow, we suggest you take a moment to assess the current situation and ascertain exactly what you expect from your time commitment. Do you side with the separate ops forever crowd or do you believe that walking in circles will somehow compel Mr. Parker to drop his lawsuit, accept a DOH list, and toss a bunch of cash on the table? Remember, the majority of those with whom you walk tomorrow will be compensated for their time through USAPA's overly generous flight pay loss program.

Knowing where you stand and what you expect is very important because we firmly believe that not only is USAPA incapable of reaching a TA, but it is firmly committed to delaying any progress as much as possible under the delusion that east attrition alone will advance their core constituency.

Our sources have confirmed that USAPA has been told by numerous advisors that the Nicolau award cannot be avoided. Eventually it will be the combined seniority list if the majority chooses to ratify a contract. USAPA is also keenly aware that mid-seniority range captains are fatigued and losing their patience with the separate ops crowd. USAPA has reduced its entire existence to pandering to competing segments of the east pilot group in order to maintain its quickly evaporating sphere of influence.

This multiple personality disorder is commonly referred to as schizophrenia. This type of mental illness exhibited by our union cannot be cured; possibly controlled, but never cured.


Unfortunately for all US Airways employees, Mr. Parker seems perfectly content with USAPA's reckless behavior. Thus far, he has refused to intervene as USAPA attempts to destroy our trust with the traveling public for its own selfish gain.

We often wonder, just who is in charge of our airline?

Mr. Cleary or Mr. Parker?



USAPA = Harold Camping would be proud.

 

[CallawayGolf]

**********************

why instead of complaining why don't you support a new contract so we can vote on it once a deal is reached and get to your nirvana...

I say support USAPA and then we can get this done and you can file your DFR 2...

why are you so worried? and come up with what you consider my post flawed.

I'm not complaining at all. Put a TA out with NIC as the section 22 seniority list and see what happens.

No other list will be accepted by Management unless they are given judicial relief from collusion liability, which isn't at all likely to happen. So if anyone wants a JCBA in 2011 or 2012, the NIC is almost certainly the only seniority list that can accomplish that. Look at what Management filed and argued before Silver in the DJ. Paraphrase - a jury, based on the merits, found USAPA guilty of a failure in their DFR because they proposed a non-NIC seniority list. The Company can be found liable if they were to accept any other list unless of course a court provides explicit protection for Management’s complicity in accepting a non-NIC list. That is Management’s position and I certainly don’t expect them to move off that position just because USAPA sends sophomoric letters and makes wildly unfounded claims about safety.

Of course even if judge Silver rules today in some form or fashion, it won’t change much if anything. If she dismisses the matter, Management will appeal. If Silver rules that the TA is unenforceable, Management and/or AOL will appeal. If Silver rules that the NIC is the only seniority list Management can accept without exposure to collusion, USAPA will appeal if for no other reason than to keep the fire hose of funds flowing into $eham’s bank account.

So for the near-term, the NIC is the only viable list that will allow JCBA negotiations to continue. Any other scenario will only lead to more delay and more uncertainties about where this east-created debacle will ultimately lead the pilots to.

DFR II is a near-certainty, but only if Management is convinced by the courts or the NMB that accepting a non-NIC list will create less financial risk and liability exposure than not accepting such a list. Otherwise, any talk of a JCBA and therefore DFR II is just pure fantasy. We all know that the Ninth ruled that ripeness occurs at ratification and that can only happen if Management agrees to accept a non-NIC list which they will not except as noted above.

I’m neither worried not complaining. I’m simply offering my take on situation at hand, buttressed with facts, reason, and logic to support my views. Do you have anything similar to offer with regards to your original post insinuating that Parker/Management is the one causing the delay in attaining a JCBA?

 

[Freebird]

I'm not complaining at all. Put a TA out with NIC as the section 22 seniority list and see what happens.

No other list will be accepted by Management unless they are given judicial relief from collusion liability, which isn't at all likely to happen. So if anyone wants a JCBA in 2011 or 2012, the NIC is almost certainly the only seniority list that can accomplish that. Look at what Management filed and argued before Silver in the DJ. Paraphrase - a jury, based on the merits, found USAPA guilty of a failure in their DFR because they proposed a non-NIC seniority list. The Company can be found liable if they were to accept any other list unless of course a court provides explicit protection for Management’s complicity in accepting a non-NIC list. That is Management’s position and I certainly don’t expect them to move off that position just because USAPA sends sophomoric letters and makes wildly unfounded claims about safety.

Of course even if judge Silver rules today in some form or fashion, it won’t change much if anything. If she dismisses the matter, Management will appeal. If Silver rules that the TA is unenforceable, Management and/or AOL will appeal. If Silver rules that the NIC is the only seniority list Management can accept without exposure to collusion, USAPA will appeal if for no other reason than to keep the fire hose of funds flowing into $eham’s bank account.

So for the near-term, the NIC is the only viable list that will allow JCBA negotiations to continue. Any other scenario will only lead to more delay and more uncertainties about where this east-created debacle will ultimately lead the pilots to.

DFR II is a near-certainty, but only if Management is convinced by the courts or the NMB that accepting a non-NIC list will create less financial risk and liability exposure than not accepting such a list. Otherwise, any talk of a JCBA and therefore DFR II is just pure fantasy. We all know that the Ninth ruled that ripeness occurs at ratification and that can only happen if Management agrees to accept a non-NIC list which they will not except as noted above.

I’m neither worried not complaining. I’m simply offering my take on situation at hand, buttressed with facts, reason, and logic to support my views. Do you have anything similar to offer with regards to your original post insinuating that Parker/Management is the one causing the delay in attaining a JCBA?

USAPA would rather delay in order to upgrade a few pilots. Despite all the money they are losing daily; the AFO's foolishly endorse this plan. You see, they can go from $85/hr to "Captain" at $125 under their beloved LOA93 and still make less than a narrow body F/O at SWA. Their ego's obscure their vision of reality and ultimately short their own pocketbook.

It's all OK though, USAPA 'leadership' is getting paid as if they were at Delta, at our expense. ($191,000) What did you earn?



USAPA = Going nowhere, fast.

 

[Ames]

I'm not complaining at all. Put a TA out with NIC as the section 22 seniority list and see what happens.


Of course even if judge Silver rules today in some form or fashion, it won’t change much if anything. If she dismisses the matter, Management will appeal. If Silver rules that the TA is unenforceable, Management and/or AOL will appeal. If Silver rules that the NIC is the only seniority list Management can accept without exposure to collusion, USAPA will appeal if for no other reason than to keep the fire hose of funds flowing into $eham’s bank account.

All true with one caveat. Should the judge rule that the Nic is the only seniority list management can use (they already accepted it, remember) without exposure to collusion ucrapa can appeal all they want. Their appeal will be irrelevant. Parker will have the answer he already knows he will get and can now hide behind the court when he finally tells ucrapa that the Nic is it.

This is all about his fear of an east meltdown and its subsequent harm to the company. Read the wording of his request for DJ to get a good understanding of this. The court will have done his dirty work for him and he will have a pretty strong case against ucrapa should the east melt down. This is a pretty limp dick way of handling the duties of CEO but I believe it's his way.