US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

The older you get the more seniority you get as long as you stay with the company. Its not rocket science

INCORRECT!

When an east pilot got hire the famous 16 years prior, he was hired with a job and at some point had pilots behind him flying airplanes.

16 years later that same pilots was furloughed (without a job) that does not make him senior that only makes him older.

Seniority =what can you hold

Longevity= how long have you been at your company

This was a seniority integration not a longevity integration.

 

[fatherabraham]

However, the fact remains that the pilots occupying the very bottom of the east seniority list had no expectation to immediately leapfrog an entire group of pilots. east furloughs had absolutely no expectation to be recalled to a position some 30% above the bottom of the list, regardless of their age or longevity.

TWO letters sum it up, but don't hand YOU a lottery ticket..........C&R

 

[Pi brat]

Fair enough. But not a good example. Was it an angel who said "stop" or a bystander who grabbed you by the arm and pulled you back to the curb? You may not owe anything to that person, but that person may deserve a little appreciation and respect.

I was hoping someone would step into that, I was just hoping it would be a west pilot. 😀 You are correct and I have thanked those that are responsible-Mr. Doug Parker and Mr. Bruce Lakefield, but there is not a single west pilot that deserves or will ever get any thanks from me. Heck, they would have been standing behind us pushing us under the bus!

 

[Pi brat]

I would disagree.

I would say you owe the West pilots the same respect you have the expectation to recieve as an east pilot. I get the impression from your post that you are inclined to do just that, however it is not the prevailing east sentiment on this board.

Mr. Nicolau did not give that much credence to the who was in worse financial shape arguements, but did note that the east had a little more to gain from the merger than their West counterparts. So I would normally refrain from making post about AA's near miss with liquidation. However, the fact remains that the pilots occupying the very bottom of the east seniority list had no expectation to immediately leapfrog an entire group of pilots. east furloughs had absolutely no expectation to be recalled to a position some 30% above the bottom of the list, regardless of their age or longevity.

I have treated each and every west pilot as I have any other human being, that is I give them the benefit of the doubt and will go out of my to be friendly and polite as long as I am treated in kind. I have the feeling you are the same type person. But, when I am treated poorly, especially in an arrogant, condescending way, I can change my stripes in a heartbeat.

I agree with you about the east leapfrogging. I don't think it's fair any more than it was fair for the west to be put in a position to leapfrog going forward. Mr. Nicolau used the near death excuse to give a lot of future gains and movement to the west.

The really sad part of this is that we(both, not just one side) couldn't come up with something between DOH and Nic to start with and ave us all millions of dollars. Now it will be the strongest, richest, smartest or luckiest that wins. Not sure which one.

 

[john john]

YOUR AIRLINE.

(Reminder... a new company was formed with the merger of AWA and USA.)

To form one Airline USAirways The HP regional is gone

 

[Pi brat]

 

[Pi brat]

Their pre-merger attrition was to have all their jobs attrited in a week. What the East pilots want is the security of the merger without experiencing any other changes. Absent the merger, the West pilots anticipated more Airbus orders and were in active hiring mode. Things changed for them too.

OJ,

Actually it wasn't. Their pre-merger expectations were really no different than yours at DL, maybe just a little shakier the longer you looked out. You know why I'm right? It turned out that they didn't lose their jobs, so anyone that said that was what they were looking at turned out to be wrong. What difference does it make if the merger saved the east jobs? There are pretty good odds that it saved the west too. No one knows what would have happened absent it to either side, so it should not have been a factor for either, period! How long does it take to cancel orders and go from hiring to furloughs? We did it pretty darn quick a few years ago. This business it too whacky to predict anything too far out and Parker is on tape saying AWA's future was bleak without a merger. That is why he was trying to peddle it to everybody and their brother. I wonder how that AWA-ATA would have worked out?

I agree with a lot of what you say in the rest of your post, I just don't assign all the blame east. The Nic award just wasn't going to fly at the time. It was too much for a pilot group that had already given up so much to keep thier company afloat to take. The west was told this but didn't listen. They could have tried to soften the blow, but they didn't. They didn't have too, but they are also paying the price for their stance. They may win in the end, but at what price? Will it be worth it to either side? We will see, but no amount of chatter on here will change anyone's mind.

You never answered my question-why do you care? Why are you so passionate about this? What is your attachment to US Airways?

 

[nic4us]

TWO letters sum it up, but don't hand YOU a lottery ticket..........C&R

THREE letters sum it up even better, and do not hand YOU a windfall......DFR.

If you insist on C&Rs, I have a few for you. Unmodified and to its terms, for starters.

 

[kubotapilot]

Man, Give it up already!

DFR - IFR - BFR...doesn't matter, let's get on with it. The desert judge will comply with the 9th's mandate very shortly and we are back to the before pushback flow.

It is what it is, when / if we get a combined list with a ratified contract, everyone can sue everyone until the $$ run out.

I have a friend dying in the hospital right now and when I took a peep at this board from lurking I had to speak up. Please, west/east/north/south...don't waste your time babbling over this. It's just a job. There are much more important things in life.

eg; Like running an on-time machine so Doug can collect his 5mil and we can get our $100.

THREE letters sum it up even better, and do not hand YOU a windfall......DFR.

If you insist on C&Rs, I have a few for you. Unmodified and to its terms, for starters.

 

[fatherabraham]

THREE letters sum it up even better, and do not hand YOU a windfall......DFR.

If you insist on C&Rs, I have a few for you. Unmodified and to its terms, for starters.

Nic,
Your do or die Nic stance has always been a win/win proposition for AWA. So easy to go to battle knowing that if the other side prevails with DOH/C&Rs YOU still win.......so why not shoot for the moon. In MY perfect world, you would pay a consequence for being so unrealistic. But last I checked, I wasn't king.
FA

 

[fatherabraham]

I have a friend dying in the hospital right now and when I took a peep at this board from lurking I had to speak up. Please, west/east/north/south...don't waste your time babbling over this. It's just a job. There are much more important things in life.

Kubotapilot,
Very sorry for you and your friend. I too have learned the truth you speak in the past, but often forget.
Thx for the reminder and GOD Bless
FA

 

[cleardirect]

OJ,

Actually it wasn't. Their pre-merger expectations were really no different than yours at DL, maybe just a little shakier the longer you looked out. You know why I'm right? It turned out that they didn't lose their jobs, so anyone that said that was what they were looking at turned out to be wrong. What difference does it make if the merger saved the east jobs? There are pretty good odds that it saved the west too. No one knows what would have happened absent it to either side, so it should not have been a factor for either, period! How long does it take to cancel orders and go from hiring to furloughs? We did it pretty darn quick a few years ago. This business it too whacky to predict anything too far out and Parker is on tape saying AWA's future was bleak without a merger. That is why he was trying to peddle it to everybody and their brother. I wonder how that AWA-ATA would have worked out?

I agree with a lot of what you say in the rest of your post, I just don't assign all the blame east. The Nic award just wasn't going to fly at the time. It was too much for a pilot group that had already given up so much to keep thier company afloat to take. The west was told this but didn't listen. They could have tried to soften the blow, but they didn't. They didn't have too, but they are also paying the price for their stance. They may win in the end, but at what price? Will it be worth it to either side? We will see, but no amount of chatter on here will change anyone's mind.

You never answered my question-why do you care? Why are you so passionate about this? What is your attachment to US Airways?

Your post kind of kills any argument you east guys use about waiting 10 years to own the airline. You want yours now with some promise that there will be anything for the west 10 years from now.

No thanks. We can share now going forward. Good or bad.

 

[nic4us]

Nic,
Your do or die Nic stance has always been a win/win proposition for AWA. So easy to go to battle knowing that if the other side prevails with DOH/C&Rs YOU still win.......so why not shoot for the moon. In MY perfect world, you would pay a consequence for being so unrealistic. But last I checked, I wasn,t king.
FA

I know you are not kidding me so I will not even ask.

Please explain how this would not hold true, and even more so for the east. Your do or die stance on DOH is a much greater win/win proposition. You either get to leapfrog an entire pilot group, or you have to settle for a "fair and equitable" arbitrated award, reached by an impartial third party panel...so why not shoot for the moon.

I will grant you this, it is not a perfect world, and the east and usapa actually do have to face the consequences of their actions for being so unrealistic. While the West faces no real monetary damages other than the cost of litigating to defend its rights (a cost that could actually be reimbursed), usapa faces a real threat of having to pay damages to the West pilots who they have failed in their DFR.

If it were up to me, once usapa accepts the Nic, we would end it there, no cost to either side, but last I checked, I was not King either.

 

[nic4us]

His current number on the Nic is 2566. He is, indeed, senior enough to be a 737 or 319 captain.

PS: One of the west check airmen cleaned up the list for attrition since the original. It can be found on the AWAPPA site.

Found him at number 2822, listed as F/O and above a few AWA captains.

Also found him on usapa's DOH list, number 2013, above all but 138 former West pilots, above 85% of the West captains, and even above 2 former West pilots hired the same exact date, the other 3 West pilots with that DOH have been retired for 3 or more years, 1 would remain senior to Mike.

Also found Coello, he gets to go from furloughed to above 1500 West pilots, 600 West captains, many of which have more LOS even counting the MDA furloughed time usapa is counting as LOS. If you do not count the furloughed time as LOS he leapfrogs hundreds of West captains with more LOS.

Also found an unbroken string of 530 West pilots well below the east furloughed mark, 300 of which are captains, the only pilots seperating them from the other 800 West pilots is the intermittent grouping of furloughed east pilots.

 

[traderjake]

The older you get the more seniority you get as long as you stay with the company.

Absolutely not true.

If you get hired and no one else get hired after you for 10 years are you anymore senior at year 10 than year one.

No, you still are the most junior pilot at the airline after 10 years.

How can you claim that your seniority increased? You are still the bottom Reserve F/O after 10 years.

That's the difference between seniority and longivity.