US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvn737s]

Thank you for the compliment.

Uh, yeah, "compliment". Right.

 

[john john]

Since when does age have anything to do with seniority?

The older you get the more seniority you get as long as you stay with the company. Its not rocket science

 

[Pi brat]

.... days from being unemployed ......

Why is this constantly thrown around? Whatever the circumstances were that made it look like said pilot might become unemployed, they changed on May 19, 2005. If you almost walk out in front of a bus, but that little angel on your shoulder says "Stop!", are you still dead? West pilots seems to feel that the east pilots should bow down and thank them all for our jobs. B.S.! The west pilots didn't give a dime out of their pockets to fund this merger and would have done anything to stop it. I guess it could be said that the merger has cost both sides something(even thought Parker says BOTH sides are better off with than without it), but if you want to look at what the respective pilot groups have given up for this company, the west will be far behind.

I'm sick of hearing this. I don't owe a west pilot anything.

 

[Ames]

"The award mixes US pilots with approximately 17 years of active service and no furlough
time with AW new hires, who were still in initial ground school at the time of the announcement
of the merger."


US Airways MEC Presentation to ALPA Executive Council May 21, 2007 \

That's not proof, it's union spin. Give an example.

 

[Ames]

Go read the bottom of the NIC list...what?? have you been in a cave this whole time.
The bottom of the list is our 17 year guys with your new hires.....you getting it yet!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

Show me a 17 year (NEVER FURLOUGHED) east guy south of a AWA new hire.

 

[Ames]

Go read the bottom of the NIC list...what?? have you been in a cave this whole time.
The bottom of the list is our 17 year guys with your new hires.....you getting it yet!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

Ok. I came out of my cave and looked at the Nicolau list. The most junior 1987 east hire is emp#22726 (DOH 12-01-87). He is just below AWA P3019 (DOH 5-24-04) Not a new hire. On property one year when this thing started. My guess is that #22726 was furloughed, but even if he wasn't he was not placed behind a new hire.

The famous P3173 (can't use names) but the bottom AWA hire, DOH 4-4-05 might be considered a new hire at AWA at the time of the acquisition. He is one above the famous#33069 who was furloughed at the time of the acquisition.

Do your homework. Quit lying.

 

[oscarjazz]

Why is this constantly thrown around? Whatever the circumstances were that made it look like said pilot might become unemployed, they changed on May 19, 2005. If you almost walk out in front of a bus, but that little angel on your shoulder says "Stop!", are you still dead? West pilots seems to feel that the east pilots should bow down and thank them all for our jobs. B.S.! The west pilots didn't give a dime out of their pockets to fund this merger and would have done anything to stop it. I guess it could be said that the merger has cost both sides something(even thought Parker says BOTH sides are better off with than without it), but if you want to look at what the respective pilot groups have given up for this company, the west will be far behind.

I'm sick of hearing this. I don't owe a west pilot anything.

If you look at the MEC presentation that was referenced a few posts ago, they refer to windfalls created by "pre-merger" expectations and "post-merger" expectations. The Airways pilots act as if their pre-merger career progression based on attrition was written in stone and the Nicolau award shattered that stone. The fact is that Airways pilots' pre-merger expectations were written in jello sitting on a hot sidewalk in Dallas in July. So the merger changed everything, you are right that the East pilots do not "owe their jobs" to the West pilots. Concurrently, the claims of "you stole my pre-merger attrition" is a joke. Their pre-merger attrition was to have all their jobs attrited in a week. What the East pilots want is the security of the merger without experiencing any other changes. Absent the merger, the West pilots anticipated more Airbus orders and were in active hiring mode. Things changed for them too.

All of these issues were hashed, rehashed, and then re-rehashed at the arbitration. Each side produced mountains of evidence and hours of testimony. The goods and bads were weighed by a neutral arbitrator, one with immense experience and respect in his field, and he made his ruling. The East pilots then tried to bully their way out of the fair and equitable result and in effect declare themselves arbitrator for a day and create a ruling in their favor. It is like assigning a defendant to be the judge at his own trial. So if you have a little bitterness from the West pilots it is duly earned by the actions of the East pilots.

Your group is acting like a giant bully, USAPA has abandoned any pretense of even attempting to represent the West pilots. After all this time and expense, you are still stuck in the mud spinning your wheels. If you could get as many pay raises as lawsuits, your contract would be restored. Next year your A-330 captains will be earning on a par with a Delta DC-9 captain. Our A-320 captains will be making $45,000 a year more than your A-320 captains. And yet your union continues to delay a decent contract while they chase this fools errand of a DOH list. The entire industry just looks at USAPA and shakes their heads. It is as if the most idiotic web board complainers actually took over a union and got to test out their crackpot theories. Absolutely unbelievable.

The West pilots are just victims of this crackpot scheme. They are stuck with no contractual gains and a company that is now crippled from action in an industry that is reconfiguring as we speak. Maybe you didn't notice, but DL and NW merged, CO and UA are going to merge and pretty soon Airways is going to be a very little fish in a very big sea. But heck, the Ninth ruled the Addington case was not ripe so all is well in USAPA land. Nero fiddles while Rome burns.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Why is this constantly thrown around? Whatever the circumstances were that made it look like said pilot might become unemployed, they changed on May 19, 2005. If you almost walk out in front of a bus, but that little angel on your shoulder says "Stop!", are you still dead? West pilots seems to feel that the east pilots should bow down and thank them all for our jobs. B.S.! The west pilots didn't give a dime out of their pockets to fund this merger and would have done anything to stop it. I guess it could be said that the merger has cost both sides something(even thought Parker says BOTH sides are better off with than without it), but if you want to look at what the respective pilot groups have given up for this company, the west will be far behind.

I'm sick of hearing this. I don't owe a west pilot anything.

The point is that the active pilot with the lowest seniority number on either pre-merger seniority list should be no more than two numbers away from being the first to be furloughed on the combined seniority list. NIC effectively maintained this basic logic which is why his ruling represents a good and fair method of integration. On the other hand, DOH would replace west pilots who could easily hold their captain seat with east pilots who were on extended furlough at the time of the merger. I wonder if that little factoid came up in the fabled discussion with the WN pilot.

 

[fatherabraham]

sorry, next page

 

[fatherabraham]

morning 8/12/10

USAPA Legal Update


As previously reported, on August 3rd the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals denied a motion to stay the "Mandate" in the Addington DFR case. That motion was filed by the plaintiffs in the Addington appeal after the Ninth Circuit denied their petition to reconsider its decision of June 4th. That decision agreed with the arguments brought forth by USAPA in both the Phoenix District Court and the Ninth Circuit Court, and found the Addington lawsuit unripe and ordered the district court to dismiss it for lack of jurisdiction. USAPA then predicted that the Mandate would issue within the following seven days, and indeed, on August 10, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals did issue its Mandate in the Addington DFR lawsuit.

A Mandate is an appeal court's instruction to a lower court, in this case Judge Wake in Phoenix district court, once the appeal is over. The Mandate officially returns the case back to the lower court with the specific direction to comply with the decision made on appeal. In this case, the decision made on appeal is clear and specific – the Ninth Circuit ruled that because no DFR claim was ripe, the district court never had jurisdiction in the first place. Therefore, the Ninth Circuit's holding is that the district court must dismiss the entire Addington lawsuit. This dismissal will cause the injunction to expire along with rendering moot all associated motions. The effect is to render the jury verdict, the judgment against USAPA and the injunction legal nullities; in other words, something which may be treated as nothing, as if it did not exist or never happened. A petition by the losing side to the U.S. Supreme Court is expected next. In that event, however, attorneys for the Association are confident of the outcome.

The issuance of the Mandate enhances USAPA's legal position on all pending issues in the US Airways v. USAPA suit.

USAPA Legal

 

[Ames]

Please reference mandate from said court.

That is if they ever issue a mandate.

But I would suppose they would have to, in order for it to be formally vacated. hmmm..I really do not know.

Anybody else know how that would work?

Also, anybody know F/O Cleary's number on the Nic?

His current number on the Nic is 2566. He is, indeed, senior enough to be a 737 or 319 captain.

PS: One of the west check airmen cleaned up the list for attrition since the original. It can be found on the AWAPPA site.

 

[767jetz]

The older you get the more seniority you get as long as you stay with the company. Its not rocket science

DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!

CONGRATULATIONS! You won the prize for being the first east pilot I've seen here admit that your DOH seniority only applies to YOUR AIRLINE.

Now we can move on with the arbitrated list, since your company no longer exists. (Reminder... a new company was formed with the merger of AWA and USA.) I agree... it's not rocket science.

 

[Ames]

Talk about irrelevant. Thinking that the Nicolau went anywhere.

The only thing that the ninth said was the DFR is not ripe. They said nothing about the Nicolau.

The company still accepted the Nicolau but have not accepted any DOH from usapa.

The company has filed a law suit asking if they have to use the Nicolau or not. So they must still think that the Nicolau award is relevant.

If there is any question of the validity of this statement just watch the recent Phoenix crew news with Scott Kirby.

 

[767jetz]

If you almost walk out in front of a bus, but that little angel on your shoulder says "Stop!", are you still dead?

I'm sick of hearing this. I don't owe a west pilot anything.

Fair enough. But not a good example. Was it an angel who said "stop" or a bystander who grabbed you by the arm and pulled you back to the curb? You may not owe anything to that person, but that person may deserve a little appreciation and respect.

 

[nic4us]

Why is this constantly thrown around? Whatever the circumstances were that made it look like said pilot might become unemployed, they changed on May 19, 2005. If you almost walk out in front of a bus, but that little angel on your shoulder says "Stop!", are you still dead? West pilots seems to feel that the east pilots should bow down and thank them all for our jobs. B.S.! The west pilots didn't give a dime out of their pockets to fund this merger and would have done anything to stop it. I guess it could be said that the merger has cost both sides something(even thought Parker says BOTH sides are better off with than without it), but if you want to look at what the respective pilot groups have given up for this company, the west will be far behind.

I'm sick of hearing this. I don't owe a west pilot anything.

I would disagree.

I would say you owe the West pilots the same respect you have the expectation to recieve as an east pilot. I get the impression from your post that you are inclined to do just that, however it is not the prevailing east sentiment on this board.

Mr. Nicolau did not give that much credence to the who was in worse financial shape arguements, but did note that the east had a little more to gain from the merger than their West counterparts. So I would normally refrain from making post about AA's near miss with liquidation. However, the fact remains that the pilots occupying the very bottom of the east seniority list had no expectation to immediately leapfrog an entire group of pilots. east furloughs had absolutely no expectation to be recalled to a position some 30% above the bottom of the list, regardless of their age or longevity.