US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Ames]

Not so fast.

A "new hire" is generally regarded to be someone on probation, which lasts a year. That would make "First Officer 5-24-04" a new hire until 5-23-05.

This all officially started on 5-19-05 when the two companies made the announcement that they would merge.

So, #22726 hired in 1987 (I don't believe any 1987 hires were ever furloughed) did indeed go behind a west "new hire."

Man, does your post reek of desperation! P3019 was 5 days away from a first year anniversary when the acquisition was announced. The transation, however, wasn't consummated until the following Sept 26, giving P3019 16 months on property.

In addition, you have yet to prove that east #22726 wasn't furloughed at the time.

 

[767jetz]

UAL really does that? That effectively places seniority in a class based on the region of your mailing address at the time of application for a SS number. If you have a mailing address in the northeast, you SSN begins with a "0" and west coast folks begin with a "9." Hardly any better than birthday. Lottery would be better than that.

Honestly, that's how it's done. I did not know about the mailing address thing though. As I said, I am senior to about 23 other pilots with the same DOH who are older than me.

 

[nic4us]

Nic,
Nope, not kidding.......quite perplexing situation for me as well

Here's where your agument is wrong:
" It's not nor has ever been DOH VS the AWA proposition "

If so, I could agree that BOTH unreasonable stances should suffer negative consequence for the years of strife.

The REASONABLE east folk negotiated west protections therefore ( C&Rs).

Yes I know......blah blah blah....my words and yours are boring.
FA

Did you mean to say, that the east attempted to impose C&Rs of its own design?

Because there was no negotiations about them. I believe it was Mowery who unilaterally concocted the C&Rs with no West imput, and certinly no West "negotiation".

BTW, it has never been vs. the AWA proposition. The Nic fell short of the AWA proposition, and is itself a compromise from our position.

 

[john john]

If you get hired and no one else get hired after you for 10 years are you anymore senior at year 10 than year one.

YES
attrition

 

[traderjake]

YES
attrition

Wrong. You are still at the bottom of the list and still the junior man.

Your seniority has not increased at all in ten years.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I will start with the last question. I have no connection to anyone at Airways. My only concern is the pilots at Airways whose careers are being shattered by their so called union. Their obsession with this has blinded them to any reality. I know I will never change Black Swan or Hate2Fly's mind and will probably never inhabit the same planet as Mutatis Mutandiis. Against my better judgment, I continue to hope that some of the lurkers on this forum will get a different perspective and change the direction of their union. It does not belong to Cleary and Bradford.

I don't subscribe to the who saved whom argument either. It is just when USAPA or pilots on this board talk about unmerged expectations it is a joke. You can't take unmerged attrition and apply it to a merged carrier because the minute the merger was announced the world changed. You can't it have both ways.

As for the West pilots needing to change, I would just point out that they didn't get their way. The arbitrator did not accept their proposal, he created his own list. He baked into that list everything that was relevant. What you "gave away to save the company" in the past is completely irrelevant to the discussion. A seniority integration does not attempt to right the wrongs of the past, it just looks at what is and how to move forward from there. The concept that the West has to give because a gun is to their head is not really rational. Not only that, but the East was not asking for small changes they wanted a complete redo. Compromise means give and take, not gimme, gimme, gimme and I will tell you when to stop giving.

The East pilots created this mess and the East pilots have perpetuated it. Surely there has been some goading from the West pilots but 99% of the blame lies east of the Mississippi. i appreciate that you can have a rational discussion without personal attacks, but the rest of the rational East pilots need to stand up and take control of your union. They are leading you on a path to nowhere.

The industry is in a massive reconfiguration right now, not just mainline but the regionals also. How many current mergers are underway right now, I count at least five. If you want your union and your company to have a seat at the table during this reconfiguration you guys need to change immediately. Otherwise more stuff will just happen to you, without your say. Usually, in this industry, that means bad stuff. Shape your future or have it handed to you, that is your choice.

What makes you think we care OJ! Another person telling someone what to think and how to feel! Well okay OSCAR OMNISIENT! Word up the UNION is in control and in fine hands so go perpetuate massive reconfiguration on someone else! You are correct you would never survive on our world! So take your 99% and well you get it! But thanks for your CONCERN we'll ad you to our Individuals , Doing , Incredible, Outward, Undertakings, Thinking pool!

 

[Pi brat]

Your post kind of kills any argument you east guys use about waiting 10 years to own the airline. You want yours now with some promise that there will be anything for the west 10 years from now.

No thanks. We can share now going forward. Good or bad.

Just wait for 10 years for the part that was on our side. You can have the rest now. At a 5 year fence and counting.

You are right, we don't know what will happen tomorrow. Oh no, wait, you are west pilot so you can predict the exact date of your entitled upgrade, your date to wide body Capt........no that's not it, oh shoot.

 

[Pi brat]

He didn't ask for your thanks, only appreciation and respect. There is a difference.

To whom? West pilots? I have no appreciation for west pilots, as they deserve none with respect to the merger. They have done absolutely nothing to further my career and a lot to damage it. They, like the east were and are along for the corporate ride.

I give respect when it is earned and that has happened with many west pilots, but there are a few on here that do not and probably will never deserve it.

 

[Pi brat]

I will start with the last question. I have no connection to anyone at Airways. My only concern is the pilots at Airways whose careers are being shattered by their so called union. Their obsession with this has blinded them to any reality. I know I will never change Black Swan or Hate2Fly's mind and will probably never inhabit the same planet as Mutatis Mutandiis. Against my better judgment, I continue to hope that some of the lurkers on this forum will get a different perspective and change the direction of their union. It does not belong to Cleary and Bradford.

I don't subscribe to the who saved whom argument either. It is just when USAPA or pilots on this board talk about unmerged expectations it is a joke. You can't take unmerged attrition and apply it to a merged carrier because the minute the merger was announced the world changed. You can't it have both ways.

As for the West pilots needing to change, I would just point out that they didn't get their way. The arbitrator did not accept their proposal, he created his own list. He baked into that list everything that was relevant. What you "gave away to save the company" in the past is completely irrelevant to the discussion. A seniority integration does not attempt to right the wrongs of the past, it just looks at what is and how to move forward from there. The concept that the West has to give because a gun is to their head is not really rational. Not only that, but the East was not asking for small changes they wanted a complete redo. Compromise means give and take, not gimme, gimme, gimme and I will tell you when to stop giving.

The East pilots created this mess and the East pilots have perpetuated it. Surely there has been some goading from the West pilots but 99% of the blame lies east of the Mississippi. i appreciate that you can have a rational discussion without personal attacks, but the rest of the rational East pilots need to stand up and take control of your union. They are leading you on a path to nowhere.

The industry is in a massive reconfiguration right now, not just mainline but the regionals also. How many current mergers are underway right now, I count at least five. If you want your union and your company to have a seat at the table during this reconfiguration you guys need to change immediately. Otherwise more stuff will just happen to you, without your say. Usually, in this industry, that means bad stuff. Shape your future or have it handed to you, that is your choice.

Okay OJ, I will take you at your word that you have no connection to US Airways, even though I just don't understand why you seem so passionate about it. I have been around, and have loved this business since I was kid, but couldn't care less about Delta. Free world and board.

I agree with some of your post but in the end you come to the same type of thinking as others. East pilots don't want anyone to make up for what they have lost, they are just not willing to give up anything else to someone else-right or wrong and I have has some lively discussions with my friends about the logic of this. It's just the way it is and you can try all you want but I don't believe you will change any minds on here. This battle will be played out in the courts and the sooner all sides stop delaying the better.

 

[Pi brat]

Absolutely not true.

If you get hired and no one else get hired after you for 10 years are you anymore senior at year 10 than year one.

No, you still are the most junior pilot at the airline after 10 years.

How can you claim that your seniority increased? You are still the bottom Reserve F/O after 10 years.

That's the difference between seniority and longivity.

That is not true unless there are no retirements or the airline shrinks at the same rate as attrition.

 

[traderjake]

If no one get hired below you, you are the junior pilot for 10 years and your seniority does not increase.

I believe something very similar to this example happened at USAir, the only difference is the last active pilot had furloughees below him.

Apparently we shrunk at the rate of attrition for a number of years.

 

[Ames]

To whom? West pilots? I have no appreciation for west pilots, as they deserve none with respect to the merger. They have done absolutely nothing to further my career and a lot to damage it. They, like the east were and are along for the corporate ride.

I give respect when it is earned and that has happened with many west pilots, but there are a few on here that do not and probably will never deserve it.

Respect the fact that they negotiated in good faith. Respect the fact that they willingly entered binding arbitration with the company and the east and that they accept the outcome. Respect the fact that they stood up to the worst bully in history, much to the surprise of said bully. Respect the fact that they accepted a new boarding policy for non reving without throwing a tantrum (much as said bully would have done). Respect the fact that, despite the "rookie" analogy, they ran the SAFEST airline in the world until this "acquisition" occurred.

 

[Pi brat]

Respect the fact that they negotiated in good faith. Respect the fact that they willingly entered binding arbitration with the company and the east and that they accept the outcome. Respect the fact that they stood up to the worst bully in history, much to the surprise of said bully. Respect the fact that they accepted a new boarding policy for non reving without throwing a tantrum (much as said bully would have done). Respect the fact that, despite the "rookie" analogy, they ran the SAFEST airline in the world until this "acquisition" occurred.

Respect the fact that they have been in our face with terms like "Pull my gear XXXXX" for the last 5 years? Respect the young pukes telling me how they "saved" my job? Respect the fact that they whine at crew news sessions like stuck pigs? Respect the jump seat rider that showed her ignorance of her aircraft and insulted me at the same time? Respect the capt that after I said hi to last week and he just stared a hole in me? Respect the times I've been called a scab? Respect the jabs at the accidents that took family members? What else? You have your children just like we have ours. As I said, I give respect when it is earned and there is precious little of that going on here.

Tell me Ames, what did you pay out of your pocket for my job?

BTW, you didn't spent those damages yet, did you?

 

[Pi brat]

If no one get hired below you, you are the junior pilot for 10 years and your seniority does not increase.

I believe something very similar to this example happened at USAir, the only difference is the last active pilot had furloughees below him.

Apparently we shrunk at the rate of attrition for a number of years.

Your are correct, we did. But........a funny thing happened on the way to the arbitration. Despite parking 30-40 aircraft the attrition out ran the shrinkage and we recalled several hundred pilots, didn't we? But Mr. Nic still, with the advantage of hindsight, put them on the bottom.

 

[Pi brat]

A lot of US Air pilots told me that US Air saved Piedmont. They were just as wrong as a west pilot that tells me he saved my job.