US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[traderjake]

There are many victims of 911, you pale in comparison sir, to the actual ones.

He said the economic conditions caused by 911 slowed their contract negotiations.

He never said he was a 911 victim or compared himself to one.

 

[nycbusdriver]

You find it funny that Seham has cost this pilot group over 5 million in direct litigation cost, and 100s of millions in lost wages? I fail to see the humor in that.

DOH is bad for a contract because it will never be ratified. The company will not agree to DOH. If by some quirk of fate the company misreads a future court declaration and concedes to a DOH contract and it gets voted on, it will never be implemented.

Ever heard the term, "final and binding"?

DOH is a non-starter. It is the Nic or nothing, and usapa's desire to force nothing is becoming ever more indicative of another breach of their DFR. hhmmm, when would that become ripe?, or are we already past the SOL.

You keep repeating this same stuff over and over and over again like doing that will actually make it come true.

I don't think ti will ever happen, but maybe if you try this:

Maybe this will make it work...nothing else will

 

[nycbusdriver]

Since when does age have anything to do with seniority? UAL lost a discrimination lawsuit many years ago, so we now use SS # to determine seniority within a group of new hires. I was the youngest in my class and turned out senior to all except one out of 25 guys. The oldest was at least 15 years older than me.

Age has nothing to do with it. You guys need to get over that.

UAL really does that? That effectively places seniority in a class based on the region of your mailing address at the time of application for a SS number. If you have a mailing address in the northeast, you SSN begins with a "0" and west coast folks begin with a "9." Hardly any better than birthday. Lottery would be better than that.

 

[fatherabraham]

please explain how this would not hold true, and even more so for the east. Your do or die stance on DOH is a much greater win/win proposition. You either get to leapfrog an entire pilot group, or you have to settle for a "fair and equitable" arbitrated award, reached by an impartial third party panel...so why not shoot for the moon.

I will grant you this, it is not a perfect world, and the east and usapa actually do have to face the consequences of their actions for being so unrealistic. While the West faces no real monetary damages other than the cost of litigating to defend its rights (a cost that could actually be reimbursed), usapa faces a real threat of having to pay damages to the West pilots who they have failed in their DFR.

If it were up to me, once usapa accepts the Nic, we would end it there, no cost to either side, but last I checked, I was not King either.

Nic,
Nope, not kidding.......quite perplexing situation for me as well

Here's where your agument is wrong:
" It's not nor has ever been DOH VS the AWA proposition "

If so, I could agree that BOTH unreasonable stances should suffer negative consequence for the years of strife.

The REASONABLE east folk negotiated west protections therefore ( C&Rs).

Yes I know......blah blah blah....my words and yours are boring.
FA

 

[oscarjazz]

OJ,

Actually it wasn't. Their pre-merger expectations were really no different than yours at DL, maybe just a little shakier the longer you looked out. You know why I'm right? It turned out that they didn't lose their jobs, so anyone that said that was what they were looking at turned out to be wrong. What difference does it make if the merger saved the east jobs? There are pretty good odds that it saved the west too. No one knows what would have happened absent it to either side, so it should not have been a factor for either, period! How long does it take to cancel orders and go from hiring to furloughs? We did it pretty darn quick a few years ago. This business it too whacky to predict anything too far out and Parker is on tape saying AWA's future was bleak without a merger. That is why he was trying to peddle it to everybody and their brother. I wonder how that AWA-ATA would have worked out?

I agree with a lot of what you say in the rest of your post, I just don't assign all the blame east. The Nic award just wasn't going to fly at the time. It was too much for a pilot group that had already given up so much to keep thier company afloat to take. The west was told this but didn't listen. They could have tried to soften the blow, but they didn't. They didn't have too, but they are also paying the price for their stance. They may win in the end, but at what price? Will it be worth it to either side? We will see, but no amount of chatter on here will change anyone's mind.

You never answered my question-why do you care? Why are you so passionate about this? What is your attachment to US Airways?

I will start with the last question. I have no connection to anyone at Airways. My only concern is the pilots at Airways whose careers are being shattered by their so called union. Their obsession with this has blinded them to any reality. I know I will never change Black Swan or Hate2Fly's mind and will probably never inhabit the same planet as Mutatis Mutandiis. Against my better judgment, I continue to hope that some of the lurkers on this forum will get a different perspective and change the direction of their union. It does not belong to Cleary and Bradford.

I don't subscribe to the who saved whom argument either. It is just when USAPA or pilots on this board talk about unmerged expectations it is a joke. You can't take unmerged attrition and apply it to a merged carrier because the minute the merger was announced the world changed. You can't it have both ways.

As for the West pilots needing to change, I would just point out that they didn't get their way. The arbitrator did not accept their proposal, he created his own list. He baked into that list everything that was relevant. What you "gave away to save the company" in the past is completely irrelevant to the discussion. A seniority integration does not attempt to right the wrongs of the past, it just looks at what is and how to move forward from there. The concept that the West has to give because a gun is to their head is not really rational. Not only that, but the East was not asking for small changes they wanted a complete redo. Compromise means give and take, not gimme, gimme, gimme and I will tell you when to stop giving.

The East pilots created this mess and the East pilots have perpetuated it. Surely there has been some goading from the West pilots but 99% of the blame lies east of the Mississippi. i appreciate that you can have a rational discussion without personal attacks, but the rest of the rational East pilots need to stand up and take control of your union. They are leading you on a path to nowhere.

The industry is in a massive reconfiguration right now, not just mainline but the regionals also. How many current mergers are underway right now, I count at least five. If you want your union and your company to have a seat at the table during this reconfiguration you guys need to change immediately. Otherwise more stuff will just happen to you, without your say. Usually, in this industry, that means bad stuff. Shape your future or have it handed to you, that is your choice.

 

[PullUp]

Why the rush? What is the urgency?
LOA 93 arb results are imminent. Easties all want that decision known before proceeding in any direction.
Things are just fine the way they are right now, thank you.
Have a great day.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Ok. I came out of my cave and looked at the Nicolau list. The most junior 1987 east hire is emp#22726 (DOH 12-01-87). He is just below AWA P3019 (DOH 5-24-04) Not a new hire. On property one year when this thing started. My guess is that #22726 was furloughed, but even if he wasn't he was not placed behind a new hire.

The famous P3173 (can't use names) but the bottom AWA hire, DOH 4-4-05 might be considered a new hire at AWA at the time of the acquisition. He is one above the famous#33069 who was furloughed at the time of the acquisition.

Do your homework. Quit lying.

Not so fast.

A "new hire" is generally regarded to be someone on probation, which lasts a year. That would make "First Officer 5-24-04" a new hire until 5-23-05.

This all officially started on 5-19-05 when the two companies made the announcement that they would merge.

So, #22726 hired in 1987 (I don't believe any 1987 hires were ever furloughed) did indeed go behind a west "new hire."

 

[nycbusdriver]

Fair enough. But not a good example. Was it an angel who said "stop" or a bystander who grabbed you by the arm and pulled you back to the curb? You may not owe anything to that person, but that person may deserve a little appreciation and respect.

I concede that point. All east pilots should show a little appreciation and respect for Bruce Lakefield, the east CEO and money whiz, who actually put the deal together. (Or, did I miss the part in the merger announcement that talked of the west pilots part in arranging the deal?)

 

[nic4us]

You keep repeating this same stuff over and over and over again like doing that will actually make it come true.

I don't think ti will ever happen, but maybe if you try this:

After it being repeated by numerous people in the positions of authority on the matter, I have no real reason to believe usapa would listen to me when I explain over and over and over agian that usapa is not getting DOH for the east pilot group.

I know DOH will never happen, but maybe if you try these;

another message for usapa supporters
A message for usapa

 

[cynic]

The East pilots created this mess and the East pilots have perpetuated it. Surely there has been some goading from the West pilots but 99% of the blame lies east of the Mississippi.

I think the company deserves about 10-15% of the blame here. They could have worked to have a joint contract before the arbitration award and the problem wouldn't have been as much of an issue. People would have bitched and complained at first, but there would only be a few grumbles every now and then by this point. That said, I don't think anyone could foresee the extreme actions taken to this point by the East pilot group via their elected representatives.

 

[nic4us]

UAL really does that? That effectively places seniority in a class based on the region of your mailing address at the time of application for a SS number. If you have a mailing address in the northeast, you SSN begins with a "0" and west coast folks begin with a "9." Hardly any better than birthday. Lottery would be better than that.

Ozark also used a SSN formula. Take the last four digits of your SSN, rearrange to come up with the lowest number possible, then compare to the rest of the class.

 

[nycbusdriver]

After it being repeated by numerous people in the positions of authority on the matter, I have no real reason to believe usapa would listen to me when I explain over and over and over agian that usapa is not getting DOH for the east pilot group.

I know DOH will never happen, but maybe if you try these;

another message for usapa supporters
A message for usapa

Oooh! Clever retort. I am seriously cut to the quick.

I will write Cleary and tell him he now has to cave on the Nic.

Posting a link to emphasize your point....very original.

LOL

 

[Ames]

I was hoping someone would step into that, I was just hoping it would be a west pilot. You are correct and I have thanked those that are responsible-Mr. Doug Parker and Mr. Bruce Lakefield, but there is not a single west pilot that deserves or will ever get any thanks from me. Heck, they would have been standing behind us pushing us under the bus!

He didn't ask for your thanks, only appreciation and respect. There is a difference.

 

[Ames]

To form one Airline USAirways The HP regional is gone

Yep, the growing and profitable regional is gone. Yet another casualty of the US Airways disease.

 

[Ames]

He said the economic conditions caused by 911 slowed their contract negotiations.

He never said he was a 911 victim or compared himself to one.

Why confuse him with the facts?