US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Hate2fly]

Oh, I'm pretty sure I get it. The east can't escape their history.

Even though the "average" may be 58, there are enough who would jump on the bait (at Cleary's recommendation - "We need to secure the integration with significant increases in pay rates, then fine tune improvements in the next negotiations"[expected]) to jam a contract. The Powerbait will be a signing bonus that will go away if voted down. The upgrading F/O's will like to sweeten their upgrades with higher rates and the super senior have nothing to lose with a yes vote. Junior F/O's , well they're under the bus as usual.

You'd love to argue that I'm wrong, but even Cleary knows I'm right. There will be no strike vote, so the only alternative is a lousy contract that will result in fleet shrinkage (double dip - cone or dish?).

East - so predictable.

luvn,

We all know that you westies have it all figured out! Look at your track record so far. Our history back east was always one of the best contracts in this industry. 9/11 changed things for the legacy carriers. Your little AWA operation was a good deal for you westies. It was the only world you ever knew. Well for us easties we don't want any part of your west world. You talk about fine tuning......let me tell you something about fine tuning. I know all the players from Cleary to the NAC and they will never put out a contract that looks like an AWA type contract. Section 1 will be water tight. Unlike the west Section 1. Min block hours and min aircraft--there will not be a deal unless these are all water tight. This will be the last contract for many of our pilots and we don't plan on buying off on some scum bag deal.

You talk about the east throwing the f/o's under the bus........tell us when it is going to happen? We have life long relationships with the pilots that we have flown with for decades. East pilots could care less what you westies think of us. You can take that to the bank!

The east attrition is going to kick in and we are going to upgrade. Just in case you didn't notice, all of the future growth (if any) will be in the International markets across the North Atlantic or in South America. Enjoy your little sub prime world in PHX.

Hate

 

[cleardirect]

luvn,

You still don't get it! Nobody back east is going to jump on a crummy contract. With an average age back here of 58 plus years old....you think this group would bite on a bs contract.
Hate

If you actually had any facts to back up any of your arguments you may be a little more effective. But continuing to spout crew room BS only hurts your case. Maybe if you guys understood what the Nicolau actually says instead of what the hard liners told you it said we could have saved a lot of years.

One last time, please try and learn. I have posted this before.

Average age at AAA DOB 5/1/1956 54 years not your claimed 58 plus
Average age at AWA DOB 9/6/1962 48 years not 35 years as some may think.

 

[nic4us]

If you think you can shame or browbeat a majority of the East pilots into voting for a contract that contains the Nic, you are woefully misinformed.

Driver <_<

Driver,

A majority of east pilots is not needed to ratify a new contract. Seperate ratification went away when usapa was elected. If the West voted in a block, it would take around 30% (maybe less) of the east to vote with them and ratify a new contract.

Being that the top 30% of the east seniority list is even minimally effected by the Nic, I would have to wonder how that vote would turn out.

 

[nic4us]

The east attrition is going to kick in and we are going to upgrade. Just in case you didn't notice, all of the future growth (if any) will be in the International markets across the North Atlantic or in South America. Enjoy your little sub prime world in PHX.

Hate

Hate,

You got this almost right. The east attrition will kick in, and when you add to it the West attrition, the number gets pretty large. With the Nic in place, east pilots will upgrade at a rate of 2:1 when compared to their West counterparts.

If there is any growth, under seperate ops it would be shared. I would not be surprised to see that North Atlantic and South America market growth added to the West fleet, to keep us at TA fleet min, as we enjoy our "little sub prime world in PHX".

 

[AWE Dog]

If you actually had any facts to back up any of your arguments you may be a little more effective. But continuing to spout crew room BS only hurts your case. Maybe if you guys understood what the Nicolau actually says instead of what the hard liners told you it said we could have saved a lot of years.

One last time, please try and learn. I have posted this before.

Average age at AAA DOB 5/1/1956 54 years not your claimed 58 plus
Average age at AWA DOB 9/6/1962 48 years not 35 years as some may think.

What did you do use east DOB's as of 2004 and west DOB's of 2010?

 

[Hate2fly]

If you actually had any facts to back up any of your arguments you may be a little more effective. But continuing to spout crew room BS only hurts your case. Maybe if you guys understood what the Nicolau actually says instead of what the hard liners told you it said we could have saved a lot of years.

One last time, please try and learn. I have posted this before.

Average age at AAA DOB 5/1/1956 54 years not your claimed 58 plus
Average age at AWA DOB 9/6/1962 48 years not 35 years as some may think.

clear,

OK, I will put the word out to the east that we should accept the nic. I will recommend to the east pilots that you, nic4 and luvn can run the show for us back here. You can get aquagreen and fergie to run the legal department. We could get the desert judge to help with legal strategy. Then you can sell us on all the growth that Team Tempe is about to unleash on the world. Don't forget to tell us back here that all west pilots still want to fly out of PHX. They will never chase the money! And last but not least, you can lead us to an industry leading contract........just like you have always had at AWA. Sounds good!

Gosh, I just don't understand how we could be so misinformed back east. We should have seen this earlier. Thank you for helping us understand that the nic is really the best thing for us.

Hate

 

[cleardirect]

clear,

OK, I will put the word out to the east that we should accept the nic. I will recommend to the east pilots that you, nic4 and luvn can run the show for us back here. You can get aquagreen and fergie to run the legal department. We could get the desert judge to help with legal strategy. Then you can sell us on all the growth that Team Tempe is about to unleash on the world. Don't forget to tell us back here that all west pilots still want to fly out of PHX. They will never chase the money! And last but not least, you can lead us to an industry leading contract........just like you have always had at AWA. Sounds good!

Gosh, I just don't understand how we could be so misinformed back east. We should have seen this earlier. Thank you for helping us understand that the nic is really the best thing for us.

Hate

Your facts are wrong. If you can not argue from a place of knowledge you are wasting everyone time.

As far as the west coming to run your little union. Someone is going to have to . Because right now. Your boys are screwing it up.

 

[luvn737s]

I ill recommend to the east pilots that you, nic4 and luvn can run the show for us back here.

Apparently, you all don't mind wasting money on Cleary and Seham. Imagine if someone could actually produce the desired results for a fraction of the $$.

You're on the right track, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

[Ames]

I didn't renege on, walk out on, or sue ANYBODY. You don't even know me. And you have NO IDEA how bad things can get. As I've said before...I consider DOH and the Nic equally toxic and I consider those who push those two points equally shortsighted.

If you think you can shame or browbeat a majority of the East pilots into voting for a contract that contains the Nic, you are woefully misinformed.

Driver <_<

Correct. I don't know you. Nor do I want to. I use the term "you" collectively, but you know that. I also don't care if you consider the Nic toxic. It was the result of final and binding arbitration which "you" entered into willingly. I am not browbeating anyone to vote for anything, just trusting the court system to do the right thing and finally shove it down your throat.

PS: I have a pretty good idea of how bad things can get and "you" don't scare me.

 

[Metroyet]

Driver,

A majority of east pilots is not needed to ratify a new contract. Seperate ratification went away when usapa was elected. If the West voted in a block, it would take around 30% (maybe less) of the east to vote with them and ratify a new contract.

Being that the top 30% of the east seniority list is even minimally effected by the Nic, I would have to wonder how that vote would turn out.

This fact is precisely why Cleary et.al. are terrified to putting out ANY contract for a vote inclusive of the Nic. The first contract that the pilots get to vote on will pass, and it will contain the Nic. award. My prediction. I also predict that USAPA will NOT be the CBA when that happens. Moreover, it will happen inside of 18 months.

 

[Freebird]

luvn,

You still don't get it! Nobody back east is going to jump on a crummy contract. With an average age back here of 58 plus years old....you think this group would bite on a bs contract. We may never have a joint contract. Team Tempe will have to fork over 400/500 million bucks per year to get it done. Separate operations is really the way to go. We still have our LOA93 Pay restoration decision coming soon. PBGC law suit is looking good. The attrition train is about to leave the station and all the east pilots have first class seat assignments. Enjoy your AWA cactus operation. You guys out west are already flying 24% of our east flying. Learn to live with what you have, it is all you are ever going to get!

Hate

Prove your Resolve. Simple. Have the cowardly leadership of usapa put up a contract to vote on. Afraid? Afraid your fellow east pilots will elect to move forward with a contract that includes the Nic?

Or are you happy being the lowest paid airline pilot, for what, 9 years running?

Usapa = Extortion and Racketeering on a daily basis. (What are YOU afraid of?)

 

[jetjok1]

luvn,

You still don't get it! Nobody back east is going to jump on a crummy contract. With an average age back here of 58 plus years old....you think this group would bite on a bs contract. We may never have a joint contract. Team Tempe will have to fork over 400/500 million bucks per year to get it done. Separate operations is really the way to go. We still have our LOA93 Pay restoration decision coming soon. PBGC law suit is looking good. The attrition train is about to leave the station and all the east pilots have first class seat assignments. Enjoy your AWA cactus operation. You guys out west are already flying 24% of our east flying. Learn to live with what you have, it is all you are ever going to get!

Hate

Hate,

I have to disagree with you on one point. From what I"m hearing, the PBGC law suit is not so rosy as you depict. You need to keep that statement as generic as the LOA93 Pay restoration. The decision is coming soon. Leave it at that.

 

[jetjok1]

Oh, I'm pretty sure I get it. The east can't escape their history.

Even though the "average" may be 58, there are enough who would jump on the bait (at Cleary's recommendation - "We need to secure the integration with significant increases in pay rates, then fine tune improvements in the next negotiations"[expected]) to jam a contract. The Powerbait will be a signing bonus that will go away if voted down. The upgrading F/O's will like to sweeten their upgrades with higher rates and the super senior have nothing to lose with a yes vote. Junior F/O's , well they're under the bus as usual.

You'd love to argue that I'm wrong, but even Cleary knows I'm right. There will be no strike vote, so the only alternative is a lousy contract that will result in fleet shrinkage (double dip - cone or dish?).

East - so predictable.

Luvn,

If you were so good at predictions, I'd have to ask why are you resigned to just being an ordinary line pilot.

 

[Hate2fly]

Prove your Resolve. Simple. Have the cowardly leadership of usapa put up a contract to vote on. Afraid? Afraid your fellow east pilots will elect to move forward with a contract that includes the Nic?

Or are you happy being the lowest paid airline pilot, for what, 9 years running?

Usapa = Extortion and Racketeering on a daily basis. (What are YOU afraid of?)

Westies,

There is nothing to put to a vote! This isn't Mesa/Trans States or some dirt bag non-sked. It isn't your AWA. Team Tempe doesn't want a contract. A contract will cost them big bucks. Dougie and Scottie realize they are dealing with a different group than the faithful ALPA boys. Contracts take a very long time to complete. Sit back and relax we are on the NMB timeline. Your X-BOX generation will not reach the next level..........too bad. The best thing that could happen to you guys out west would be a split off. Practice up that brick yard call sign.

USAPA is the best money we ever spent. No jumping the line.

Hate

 

[CallawayGolf]

Westies,

There is nothing to put to a vote! This isn't Mesa/Trans States or some dirt bag non-sked. It isn't your AWA. Team Tempe doesn't want a contract. A contract will cost them big bucks. Dougie and Scottie realize they are dealing with a different group than the faithful ALPA boys. Contracts take a very long time to complete. Sit back and relax we are on the NMB timeline. Your X-BOX generation will not reach the next level..........too bad. The best thing that could happen to you guys out west would be a split off. Practice up that brick yard call sign.

USAPA is the best money we ever spent. No jumping the line.

Hate

LOL. This is a great post for those of who needed a good laugh. You’re right there is nothing to put out to a vote because USAPA is unwilling and unable to gain any negotiating leverage with Management. Management will never give USAPA what they want because USAPA hasn’t given them a reason to. All USAPA can do is threaten to file a lawsuit or go to the NMB board. Management doesn’t fear these venues because they have been offering good faith proposals in an effort to get a CBA while USAPA is perpetually distracted on a section 22 pipe dream that will never happen. Sure Doug and Scott want a combined CBA, but they aren’t going to give away anything important to get it. I’m sure Management felt APLA was a worthy and respected adversary in the negotiation process. They probably view USAPA as a prepubescent , temper-tantrum prone and fully neutered outfit that can be manipulated in any way they so chose. Think of a side-show hypnotist manipulating people into clucking like a chicken and you probably have the right analogy for how Management views and controls USAPA in any way they so desire.