US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[PullUp]

I've heard the same info from a source at the FAA. It is going to be a 12 hour duty day, rest will now begin at hotel checkin and duty day begins at hotel checkout. There are a whole bunch of other proposed changes as well such as allowing out and back transcons as long as flight time is less than 10 hours and duty day is under 12. Southwest and JBLU are pushing hard for this from what I hear. The 20% increase in staffing seems high to me, from what I was told most of the 121 carriers are planning on a 6-9% increase instaffing based on the type of flying they do. I'm not sure there is anything official posted yet but was told it will be very soon.

From what I could gather on govermt websites, the NPRM is due out in Jan and the new rules must take effect in August 11, whatever they wind up being. There is nothing concrete in the new law yet concerning crew duty/fatigue/rest.
As for the 20%? Think attrition.
Have a nice day.

 

[biggie smalls]

From what I could gather on govermt websites, the NPRM is due out in Jan and the new rules must take effect in August 11, whatever they wind up being. There is nothing concrete in the new law yet concerning crew duty/fatigue/rest.
As for the 20%? Think attrition.
Have a nice day.

The reserve pilots are flying everyday, no more sitting around, absolutly they are short. The company does not want another 2100 flights cancelled for the upcoming holiday season, management took a lot of heat last year over this. They know of the induce socalled surgery and will have to continue to run classes threw out the year.

Another solution is to extend the retiring age again to 67 provideing these pilots can hold there medical with no restrictions. Theses meetings are been conducted as we speak between the company and the FAA to protect the airlines shortage of pilots for the months to come

 

[biggie smalls]

Could you provide a link to the FAA site that outlines the new rules? I looked but couldn't find any verifiable information.
Thanks

PULL UP hear it is seek and you shall find............

Congress Passes Landmark Safety Bill
Wednesday, August 04, 2010
USAPA is extremely pleased and proud to report that the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate passed the "Airline Safety and FAA Extension Act of 2010" (H.R. 5900). The landmark safety bill includes the requirement that all Part 121 Airline Transport Pilots be required to hold an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate with a three-year implementation rule.
Prior to this law, it would be perfectly legal for an 18-year-old pilot with 190 hours from an approved school to sit as a First Officer on an A-330 trans-oceanic flight. This is not only a blatantly-apparent safety issue, it is an issue for the entire airline pilot profession, and the effects of this bill will be felt from safety to regional airline outsourcing.
USAPA – working extensively through its Officers, the Government Affairs Committee, CAPA, Captain Sully Sullenberger and, in particular, Flight 1549 First Officer and CAPA Vice President Jeff Skiles – initiated the drive on Capitol Hill at our first congressional hearing February 24, 2009.
USAPA developed many of the drafts used by all parties, including the July 2009 "USAPA Statement Regarding First Officer Licensing Requirements," to successfully push the ATP issue to the Subcommittee on Aviation and Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure in the U.S. House of Representatives. This document and USAPA’s talking points and prepared testimonies were used by the entire CAPA team and our shared political strategists, Albertine Enterprises, as educational material for hundreds of meetings with congressional staffers and their principals.
It was at these meetings that the CAPA team educated lawmakers on the concept of utilizing the ATP requirement to end the negative ramifications of the erosion of new-hire pilot qualifications and thereby reduce the risk of preventable fatal airline accidents. The team was supported by the "Buffalo Family Members," who actively supported the ATP requirement. The tragedy of Continental Connection Flight 3407 shortly after the "Miracle on the Hudson" was a wake-up call, clearly delineating the negative changes in our industry. It was a tragic reminder when weighing the fine line between safety and economics, the need to attract the best and brightest on our flight decks and the distinct difference between training and experience.
The Airline Safety and FAA Extension Act of 2010 also will require the FAA to promulgate a rule on long overdue changes to flight and duty time limits within one year. The FAA has postponed the introduction of the "Notice of Proposed Rulemaking Changes" (NPRM) two times since the Fatigue ARC Committee finished its work in September 2009. The FAA’s new target date for the release of the NPRM is September 2010, pushing implementation of any new rules to late 2011 or 2012.
Note that the bill is called an "Extension Act." That is because many of the pieces of the FAA Reauthorization Bill were not agreed upon in both the House and Senate prior to an FAA funding deadline. What were agreed upon were the "Airline Safety" provisions from the House side and another extension to fund the FAA to maintain operations beyond August 1, 2010. Important work remains to be done for a long-term FAA Reauthorization Bill. We also note that the ATP requirement will come under constant attack from the industry, but it is the law of the land, and we will protect it vigorously.
We applaud House Transportation and Infrastructure Chairman James Oberstar and Aviation Subcommittee Chairman Jerry Costello for their real-world dedication to the safety of the traveling public.



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[PullUp]

The Airline Safety and FAA Extension Act of 2010 also will require the FAA to promulgate a rule on long overdue changes to flight and duty time limits within one year. The FAA has postponed the introduction of the "Notice of Proposed Rulemaking Changes" (NPRM) two times since the Fatigue ARC Committee finished its work in September 2009. The FAA’s new target date for the release of the NPRM is September 2010, pushing implementation of any new rules to late 2011 or 2012.

Yep, that's what I found, too. But it does not say 12 hour days with 8 behind the door....or anything, for that matter.
No specifics yet, but stay tooned - more to come shortly.....
Thanks

 

[psw737]

From what I could gather on govermt websites, the NPRM is due out in Jan and the new rules must take effect in August 11, whatever they wind up being. There is nothing concrete in the new law yet concerning crew duty/fatigue/rest.
As for the 20%? Think attrition.
Have a nice day.

Last I checked the big upswing in retirements isn't going to kick in until after Dec 13, 2012. I'm not sure what attrition your talking about for next year, i think the poster was saying 20% more pilots will be required for the new regs due out. Seems a bit high, i think 10% or 300-500 pilots is more likely.

 

[psw737]

The reserve pilots are flying everyday, no more sitting around, absolutly they are short. The company does not want another 2100 flights cancelled for the upcoming holiday season, management took a lot of heat last year over this. They know of the induce socalled surgery and will have to continue to run classes threw out the year.

Another solution is to extend the retiring age again to 67 provideing these pilots can hold there medical with no restrictions. Theses meetings are been conducted as we speak between the company and the FAA to protect the airlines shortage of pilots for the months to come

67? They will have to start issuing these guys some depends undergarments for flights over 2 hours! Not gonna happen.

 

[PullUp]

The reserve pilots are flying everyday, no more sitting around, absolutly they are short. The company does not want another 2100 flights cancelled for the upcoming holiday season, management took a lot of heat last year over this. They know of the induce socalled surgery and will have to continue to run classes threw out the year.

Another solution is to extend the retiring age again to 67 provideing these pilots can hold there medical with no restrictions. Theses meetings are been conducted as we speak between the company and the FAA to protect the airlines shortage of pilots for the months to come

According to the company, there are absolutely no problems with manning holidays. Right. As for retiring at 67? No one has made it to 65 yet! Payscales are going to have to increase substantially to attract ex-military pilots in the near future. Long term there is definitely a shortage, and the beginnings should start being felt next year with the top starting to retire or become medically disqualified.
Have a great day.

 

[biggie smalls]

Yep, that's what I found, too. But it does not say 12 hour days with 8 behind the door....or anything, for that matter.
No specifics yet, but stay tooned - more to come shortly.....
Thanks

Check out Rest and Duty in section 212 Government Affairs Committe Library - USAPA

 

[biggie smalls]

67? They will have to start issuing these guys some depends undergarments for flights over 2 hours! Not gonna happen.

Well don't worry if they don't start bringing guys back asap, they will just have to assign nurses on every flight over 5 hours....

 

[Ames]

Here's my point. All this back and forth means NOTHING. NOTHING will be decided here except maybe solidifying hard feelings between our groups.


B)

The feelings were solidified years ago, when you reneged on arbitration, walked out of negotiations, started suing west pilots.....
You get my drift. Feelings can't get any worse. Your snarking won't lighten things up any.

 

[luvthe9]

The feelings were solidified years ago, when you reneged on arbitration, walked out of negotiations, started suing west pilots.....
You get my drift. Feelings can't get any worse. Your snarking won't lighten things up any.

Well, holding the East pay down was not a smart move either. Anyway, you want to see how bad it is for airline pilots. Just spoke with a friend of mine whose son is a CLT controller. 6 yrs in 29 yrs old 139k a year.

 

[Ames]

What did Mr Bloch use.

Mr Bloch's findings

Mr. Nicolau was the arbitrator. What he used is what is significant.

 

[Ames]

Well, holding the East pay down was not a smart move either. Anyway, you want to see how bad it is for airline pilots. Just spoke with a friend of mine whose son is a CLT controller. 6 yrs in 29 yrs old 139k a year.

You held your own pay down when you walked out of negotiations.

PS: I'm not interested in being a controller, regardless of pay. I like the job I have, just sick of this east/west BS.

 

[Hate2fly]

Last I checked the big upswing in retirements isn't going to kick in until after Dec 13, 2012. I'm not sure what attrition your talking about for next year, i think the poster was saying 20% more pilots will be required for the new regs due out. Seems a bit high, i think 10% or 300-500 pilots is more likely.

psw737,

Mandatory age 65 retirements start December 13, 2012. We in the east have pilots with full sick banks. Assume someone gets sick in their last 18 months at age 63.5 and they have a full sick bank. That will give them full pay until the last day. I haven't flown with many guys that are going to leave here with sick balances. As of July of next year starts the clock on the last 18 months.

The east is extremely short of crews right now and there have been consistant 90/95 hour months for years now. The flight time duty time changes are going to be a problem for this outfit. The training department will have to grow and that takes many months to ramp up. The ramp up for age 65 retirements will have to happen at least six months before December 2012. In the east when we have a Big Bus Captain retire it triggers so many training events. The attrition train is getting ready to depart the station. We are also dealing with age 60 issues in the International operations which requires the company to have additional pilots. Team Tempe so far has been behind the power curve in staffing and it will soon be a problem.

The training float going forward will not end for the next 15 years in the east. We lose more than 2800 pilots back east in the next 14 years due to age 65. Recalls have started and if the company is smart they will start hiring off the street in the spring, so that new hire pilots are trained for the 2011 summer flying schedule. 2012 will be here before you know it and all of us in the east are getting older.

Hate

 

[jimntx]

psw737,

Mandatory age 65 retirements start December 13, 2012.The east is extremely short of crews right now and there have been consistant 90/95 hour months for years now.

Curiosity question...Your two sentences above imply that raising the retirement age to 65 did not encourage a lot of pilots to stay around if they were otherwise eligible to retire. Am I right, or did I misunderstand what you are saying. The reason I ask is that it doesn't seem to have made big difference in the retirement rate at AA either. The pilots I talk to say they have had enough and are going out at the first opportunity.