US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/29- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[pilot]

You have no idea how much the East pilots HATE ALPA. You have NO chance of getting them back. Wait till more info comes out on the pension. It can only get worse for ALPA. Ask the MDA guys. Ask any East pilot. We get our blood up when that miserable institution is mentioned. We have the numbers. We will deny them, again. 30 yrs in ALPA. and the pension and Nicolau sealed the death warrant for them.

No, black swan, no. Do not be discouraging to them. The west needs to get alpa back for another vote. Bring them back, hold an election. The west is very astute at this stuff. I encourage the west to reach out to alpa and get them back for another vote. Go for it west. You surely will win if you will only try. And certainly you need to appeal to the supreme court. The judges will most certainly support that appeal. There is no doubt.

Bring back alpa for a vote and appeal and find other suits to file. Do it.

 

[nic4us]

This is why you and the rest of the AWA pilots will continue to be our enemy. And yes make no mistake about it you are, and will be treated as such.

You very loudly proclaim how YOU are entitled to everything that the east has; things that we have sacrificed for 25 to 30
years for. What you conveniently gloss over is that AWA pilots are not only flying 24% of the East routes, but that is 24% of our jobs that have been TRANSFERRED to the AWA pilots. Put another way - that is 24% of AWA that stole OUR jobs.

There is a huge discrepancy in what is going on here - the AWA pilots want to take jobs from the East, in other words they want to fly routes, and airplanes that they did not bring to the merger; while the East pilots just want to keep what they brought to the merger.

What is wrong with this picture?

I can assure you that we will never give up on protecting our seniority rights, and preventing the absolute wholesale transfer of opportunity and jobs that is embodied in the Nic award.

Boeing Driver

Thanks for the heads up, but your treatment of the West pilot group has been obvious from the beginning.

Would you mind explaining to me how it is that you consider my seniority as not really mine, but nothing more than a negotiable postition granted to me by the union and subject to change upon every contract ratification. Yet routes that are clearly the property of the company are yours.

Get over the you just want what you brought falacy. Your behavior since the merger states otherwise. You locked the West out of growth, something you certainly did not bring to the merger. You desperately want out of the worst contract in the industry, something you did bring to the merger. You have been fighting tooth and nail to enhance your seniority at the West expense, did Monda not bring the absolute bottom seniority position with him to the merger?

No one is buying the we only want what we brought charade. Why won't you just be honest and say what you really want. It would go something like this. We want what we brought, we want first dibs on all future benefits that resulted from the merger, we want our position to be treated as more enhanced than that of the West pilots, and we want to strip the West of representational input so that they cannot throw a monkey wrench into what we want.

 

[Black Swan]

Monda brought 17 uninterrupted yrs. of service. To match him with a new hire and trash all that time, is what is getting your side in a losing position. We are going to take you to battle for this forever. Just because you think you can wipe out his career is your own idea, not held by many others in society. We have beaten you on all counts because of your entitlement mentality. Pilot is correct. Please go to the Supreme Court, and by all means, get the cards for the election again. You have a chance.

 

[nic4us]

By the way, a guy I know talked to Lyle Hogg. The company knows they are seriously understaffed on the East side.Then the early acceptance of the 3 330's adds more hiring pressure. They are way behind on gearing up for the recalls, which have to come quickly. I would imagine things are going to be looking up for those furloughed who want to come back. Hope to see you furloughed back soon.

I am hearing 4 to 6 weeks and we will have the recall numbers. Hope that means recalls by late Aug. Also, I am hearing both sides are understaffed, but have heard nothing about numbers to each side.

Further, just in case you are wondering, it is the companies position that east recalls will be in the order of east furloughs, then third listers, then West furloughs.

 

[nic4us]

Monda brought 17 uninterrupted yrs. of service. To match him with a new hire and trash all that time, is what is getting your side in a losing position. We are going to take you to battle for this forever. Just because you think you can wipe out his career is your own idea, not held by many others in society. We have beaten you on all counts because of your entitlement mentality. Pilot is correct. Please go to the Supreme Court, and by all means, get the cards for the election again. You have a chance.

So you are saying that you do not want Monda to have what he brought, (i.e. the absolute bottom position) but something more in line with what 17 years service would get him at some other airline? The West and/or Nicolau had nothing to do with Monda's career or the trashing thereof.

Our side is not in a losing position, and I fail to see how you have beaten the West on all counts. You did not get DOH from the arbitrator. You did not convince the jury. You have not yet convinced the company. And you certainly have not convinced the West pilot group (plan on being sued and losing if you forward "the damages plaintiffs fear").

I am not going to support a card drive. The last thing the West needs now is to let the weasel out of the bag. If you want ALPA back, you start the card drive, your side is the one that controls the votes.

 

[700UW]

If the company decides what base flies what routes, how can you say the west stole 24% of your flights?

If they can do that, man they must have Doug in their back pocket.

Its really amazing to see the lack of intelligence from the chest thumping easters.

You havent gotten DOH, and the west didnt lose on the merits of the case, the court just said it wasnt ripe yet, you will be back in court again.

 

[luvthe9]

If the company decides what base flies what routes, how can you say the west stole 24% of your flights?

If they can do that, man they must have Doug in their back pocket.

Its really amazing to see the lack of intelligence from the chest thumping easters.

You havent gotten DOH, and the west didnt lose on the merits of the case, the court just said it wasnt ripe yet, you will be back in court again.

I think you missed the boat 700UW, on a lot of the issues here. By the way, the jets are looking fabulous inside now that the F/A group cleans them. Seems the delays we took all those years waiting were for naught.

 

[luvthe9]

If the company decides what base flies what routes, how can you say the west stole 24% of your flights?

OK..........IF those routes were historically flown by the East, and now are flown by the West because they closed their LAS domicile, and had to put them somewhere and thence put them on routes flown by East pilots- then they stole the routes. That is how it happened.And the East could easily have continued to fly those routes and brought back the furloughed to do it. Get it? To use your words, they fleeced one to rob the other.

 

[cleardirect]

If the company decides what base flies what routes, how can you say the west stole 24% of your flights?

OK..........IF those routes were historically flown by the East, and now are flown by the West because they closed their LAS domicile, and had to put them somewhere and thence put them on routes flown by East pilots- then they stole the routes. That is how it happened.And the East could easily have continued to fly those routes and brought back the furloughed to do it. Get it? To use your words, they fleeced one to rob the other.

I guess you chose to ignore the T/A 10 dispute that has min block hours. It is the company that decides where the flying goes. Just like all of the assets of this company. The west pilots did not move the flying.

Want to talk about the Hawaii flying that west done by the west. How about the new PHX Montego Bay that the east NEVER did? Would you call that stolen work?

 

[nic4us]

Yep, anyone can sue anyone for anything at anytime.

Also, the mediator does have some say in the pace of the proceedings now, and also as to the status of the negotiations. Stonewalling on any issue may trigger a cooling off period and self-help. The monthly lease payment on an A330 is pretty expensive, don't you think? The airlines entire network is geared to the international feed at PHL. 2 billion in the bank doesn't seem like a lot with empty 330's sitting around for a while...
To summarize:
1. Supremes - Hail Mary pass that misses by a mile. Delay costs in legal fees and additional time with no new contract.
2. Company - not liable when accepting any list that meets transition agreement criteria. They don't care what it is unless they can get concessions for it...any they will not 'stonewall' over it. Remember, they do not care about you.
3. AOL West - broke and wasting more money by not waiting for a new contract before deciding on a legal strategy (that will utimately lose due to 'wide range of reasonableness' standard).
Have a great day.

The mediator does have some say, but self-help is not the only option. Plan on getting parked.

1. Supremes. Long shot for sure.

2. Company not liable when accepting a list that conforms to TA criteria. One such criteria being the use of ALPA merger policy.

3. AOL West-broke? Think again. Also, we will not put the Nic vs. DOH on trial (wide range of reasonableness is immaterial). We will put usapa on trial for failing its DFR to the West pilot group. exhibit A, its wholesale theft of West position and status within the merged company. Exhibit b, its campaign and election on the promise of accomplishing exhibit a. exhibit c, the TA, which links the company to exhibits a and b.

It will be a while before any of this occurs, because usapa is going to get parked at the negotiating table.

Good luck on the LOA93 grievance.

 

[Black Swan]

Thanks for the good luck on the LOA93.

 

[N924PS]

I think you missed the boat 700UW, on a lot of the issues here. By the way, the jets are looking fabulous inside now that the F/A group cleans them. Seems the delays we took all those years waiting were for naught.

A typical "luvthe9" post. Don't lilke the message, disparage the poster in some sophomoric way. Grow up for goodness sakes.

And just for t he record, I agree with 700UW. Standing by for the incoming..................

 

[Black Swan]

The mediator does have some say, but self-help is not the only option. Plan on getting parked.

1. Supremes. Long shot for sure.

2. Company not liable when accepting a list that conforms to TA criteria. One such criteria being the use of ALPA merger policy.

3. AOL West-broke? Think again. Also, we will not put the Nic vs. DOH on trial (wide range of reasonableness is immaterial). We will put usapa on trial for failing its DFR to the West pilot group. exhibit A, its wholesale theft of West position and status within the merged company. Exhibit b, its campaign and election on the promise of accomplishing exhibit a. exhibit c, the TA, which links the company to exhibits a and b.

It will be a while before any of this occurs, because usapa is going to get parked at the negotiating table.

Good luck on the LOA93 grievance.

We are all waiting on this. Who knows what way it will go, but I am trying to be objective and real. I read Donn Butkovics' summary, and it honestly was well written and made sense. Of course I am biased, but the fact is, a freeze is a freeze. The way I see it is this- when something is frozen, it is done for a limited time, then "thaws" or comes off freeze. And that term is used because it describes returning to a past state, unaltered. You freeze a piece of meat, you preserve it in its' state when you put it in the freezer. You don't put a steak in, expecting to open the freezer door at a later date, and find chicken, or fish. And in this case, you don't come off freeze Dec 31 2009 and open the door expecting to have to negotiate new pay rates. You thaw to your prior rate. This is why I think we will win, unless somebody did a poor job of explaining it or someone interprets it differently. We shall see.

 

[Black Swan]

.

"Its really amazing to see the lack of intelligence from the chest thumping easters." 700UW

-Maybe this is the reason he went into this with this stance......-

 

[Phoenix]

You're wrong.

The majority of other pilots are laughing at you and you don't know it.

Like I said, we have a history, everyone else sees it and doesn't like it.

That's why they want nothing to with us.

Majority laughing?

Nic4us and Boeingboy must be delighted to know they are now part of the majority.

The majority of "other pilots" are apathetic to what is going on over here. Those that do care are envious that their pilot group didn't toss ALPA on its ear. There is a relatively small group of vocal malcontents but they aren't laughing at what we did. They are visibly upset and are trying to use some supposed peer pressure to get us to feel guilty about what is right, and about what the NMB and the courts have vindicated.

Do you have any more secrets you can let us in on?