US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/29- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

Traitor Jake,

So you are saying that the east pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, fleet service agents, gate agents, et al are stealing the west jobs?

 

[nic4us]

Going to the supreme court would be a fools errand. Spending another 2 million when eleven judges said the case doesn't have merit might just be throwing good money away.
Plus, the time involved with a supreme court case would only hurt the people that are claiming to be hurt.
Honestly, I'd wait for the new contract, take the money, and make the legal decisions then....
Time to get that new contract ratified (on January 2nd).
Have a great day.

First, 11 judges did not say the case does not have merit.

2 judges said usapa is guilty as charged.
2 judges said the case is not ripe, and that they have no jurisdiction to comment on merit.
2 judges voted against en banc, 1 judge voted for en banc, none of the other judges in the appelate asked for there to be a vote, so en banc denied.

All the judges who commented on merit say, usapa is guilty as charged.

The Supreme Court might be a long shot, but the time frame would not be as long as you suggest. The decision to appeal to the SCOTUS will be made in a week or so. I figure we will file, in the mean time usapa can move forward and find the impass they have created.

There will be no new contract on jan 2. usapa will be parked at the negotiating table for its insistance on an illegal DOH seniority proposal. The decision for the company is an easy one. Take the DOH contract, get sued, have pilot payroll jump 200+ million a year, or, tell you to keep DOH, watch you get parked and sit on our industry bottom contracts for the foreseable future.

Your only silver lining is the lump sum payment. Is this the last one?



BTW, we do not necessarily have to wait for a ratified contract to sue and win again.

 

[nic4us]

Oops, double post.

Are the flight attendants screaming about the east stealing their jobs?

Are the Mechanics screaming about the east stealing their jobs?

Fair is Fair, DOH with C&R's is more than fair. Are you saying that all the other employee groups at US Airways are hiding behind DOH to steal jobs at the expense of others?

The flight attendants have not been integrated yet. So far they are thankful for the pilot fight keeping them seperate.

The West mechanics screamed load and clear, got screwed on procedure and some issues on pay and profit sharing.

Fair is fair, and an combined list arrived at by a third party neutral is vastly more fair than the usapa DOH seniority theft proposal.

Actually, your unilaterally derived DOH list is not fair, but you have already been told that by every authority who has had the displeasure of meeting your group, so I will not try to convince you otherwise. But I will point out you will never get it.

 

[Pilot692]

First, 11 judges did not say the case does not have merit.

2 judges said usapa is guilty as charged.
2 judges said the case is not ripe, and that they have no jurisdiction to comment on merit.
2 judges voted against en banc, 1 judge voted for en banc, none of the other judges in the appelate asked for there to be a vote, so en banc denied.

All the judges who commented on merit say, usapa is guilty as charged.

The Supreme Court might be a long shot, but the time frame would not be as long as you suggest. The decision to appeal to the SCOTUS will be made in a week or so. I figure we will file, in the mean time usapa can move forward and find the impass they have created.

There will be no new contract on jan 2. usapa will be parked at the negotiating table for its insistance on an illegal DOH seniority proposal. The decision for the company is an easy one. Take the DOH contract, get sued, have pilot payroll jump 200+ million a year, or, tell you to keep DOH, watch you get parked and sit on our industry bottom contracts for the foreseable future.

Your only silver lining is the lump sum payment. Is this the last one?



BTW, we do not necessarily have to wait for a ratified contract to sue and win again.

41 judges including the dissenter said...Nope...... And they work off a DOH list themselves....... Irony

 

[Freighterguynow]

The decision to appeal to the SCOTUS will be made in a week or so. I figure we will file,

Brilliant idea!

 

[Freighterguynow]

Sorry to break it to you, but your airline went bye bye 5 years ago. LCC is a combination of 2 airlines.

The rats on a sinking ship mindset.

You will not be bidding East absent a joint contract - the longer you delay the more it favors the East with risk all out West.

Pan Am was a combination of 2 airlines - how did that work?

 

[informed]

First, 11 judges did not say the case does not have merit.

2 judges said usapa is guilty as charged.
2 judges said the case is not ripe, and that they have no jurisdiction to comment on merit.
2 judges voted against en banc, 1 judge voted for en banc, none of the other judges in the appelate asked for there to be a vote, so en banc denied.

Unfortunately for you, we are not playing horeshoes here. Call it more like a game of chess and your king is in checkmate.

 

[PullUp]

First, 11 judges did not say the case does not have merit.

2 judges said usapa is guilty as charged.
2 judges said the case is not ripe, and that they have no jurisdiction to comment on merit.
2 judges voted against en banc, 1 judge voted for en banc, none of the other judges in the appelate asked for there to be a vote, so en banc denied.

All the judges who commented on merit say, usapa is guilty as charged.

The Supreme Court might be a long shot, but the time frame would not be as long as you suggest. The decision to appeal to the SCOTUS will be made in a week or so. I figure we will file, in the mean time usapa can move forward and find the impass they have created.

There will be no new contract on jan 2. usapa will be parked at the negotiating table for its insistance on an illegal DOH seniority proposal. The decision for the company is an easy one. Take the DOH contract, get sued, have pilot payroll jump 200+ million a year, or, tell you to keep DOH, watch you get parked and sit on our industry bottom contracts for the foreseable future.

Your only silver lining is the lump sum payment. Is this the last one?



BTW, we do not necessarily have to wait for a ratified contract to sue and win again.

Yep, anyone can sue anyone for anything at anytime. Go for it. But the chances of winning versus wasting your money approach zero percent (up from negative numbers) if you actually have an injury...
Also, I beg to differ: Eleven judges just told you (by abstention) that your DFR case is not ripe and has a snowballs chance in Hades of success without said injury.
I would posit that if the west files with the Supremes we will not have a contract until that legal challenge is settled, a delay tactic that really benefits only the company. Research indicates 6-8 months for the writ to be decided upon...
My preference for January 2nd is only because the east pilots are due their $35 million bonus on Jan. 1 (happy new year). If a ratification vote were scheduled, that should be the soonest the contract should be signed - not before. Yes, it is the second of two payments and it would be a shame for the company to weasel out of it.
This management has demonstrated clearly that they do not care about their employees or their families - they are only cost items on a spreadsheet. I could go into many paragraphs on how other companies treat their most valuable resources, but if you are affiliated with this latest incarnation of the comlpany, you know firsthand how it is, and how it used to be. Bottom line is that management has stated that they don't care how the seniority issued is settled as long as the metrics ($$) are met as defined in the transition agreement. If summoned as a defendant in a DFR case, they will point to 'internal union dispute' and the transition agreement conditions as their defense to their non-culpability. I don't believe any judge will find them liable.
Also, the mediator does have some say in the pace of the proceedings now, and also as to the status of the negotiations. Stonewalling on any issue may trigger a cooling off period and self-help. The monthly lease payment on an A330 is pretty expensive, don't you think? The airlines entire network is geared to the international feed at PHL. 2 billion in the bank doesn't seem like a lot with empty 330's sitting around for a while...
To summarize:
1. Supremes - Hail Mary pass that misses by a mile. Delay costs in legal fees and additional time with no new contract.
2. Company - not liable when accepting any list that meets transition agreement criteria. They don't care what it is unless they can get concessions for it...any they will not 'stonewall' over it. Remember, they do not care about you.
3. AOL West - broke and wasting more money by not waiting for a new contract before deciding on a legal strategy (that will utimately lose due to 'wide range of reasonableness' standard).
Have a great day.

 

[Barrister]

The majority of Piedmont pilots said it was unfair until we merged with America West.

Now that it's benefits them they've alot have flipped.

That my friend is an incorrect statement. Sure relative position would have been nice
but the issue was the fact that U constantly took time out of bases and then put it
back in....meaning when time was pulled PI guys lost their seats...but when that time
was put back in they considered it new time....so open for bid by the more senior U guys
The PI guys started sliding backwards from the VERY FIRST bid and it did not let up for years.
When GSO was closed they put the time in ....GUESS WHERE....SFO and LAX....smart move!!!
So all of those guys displaced to CLT. The GSO Chief pilot didn't even know the base
was closing until the new bid came out. U basically had their heads placed in other areas for years.
No one will disput that!!. And this has continued some what under AW., As for DOH...it was adapted
to rather quickly....and so will you

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[luvn737s]

1. Supremes - Hail Mary pass that misses by a mile. Delay costs in legal fees and additional time with no new contract.

That's why a new representation vote holds so much promise:
1. Less cost than legal proceedings
2. Equally effective at preventing USAPA from decimating west careers on an ill-conceived juggernaut
3. May ultimately unseat USAPA from their position as CBA
4. Provides sufficient uncertainty in the mind of management for them to justify suspending negotiations

In other words, there's more than one way to skin a tyrannical cat.

 

[Black Swan]

[quote na
Nic4us


"BTW, we do not necessarily have to wait for a ratified contract to sue and win again."
[/quote]
BTW you are correct. You can sue again. Please do it. The last part, "and win again" is incorrect. You won nothing.

 

[pilot]

I highly suggest the west group sue again in as many venues as possible as soon as possible. Start with the supreme court and work your way down. Use your same law firm.

I also suggest the west group get alpa back and hold a vote on getting them back on the property as soon as possible. Have Prater as your point man. He's the man. He can do it. He is your Patton.

I suggest that you start both of those crusades on this Monday if possible. There is no doubt you will win on all counts if you just do it.

Get to work. Stop this tyranny. Now.

 

[Black Swan]

By the way, a guy I know talked to Lyle Hogg. The company knows they are seriously understaffed on the East side.Then the early acceptance of the 3 330's adds more hiring pressure. They are way behind on gearing up for the recalls, which have to come quickly. I would imagine things are going to be looking up for those furloughed who want to come back. Hope to see you furloughed back soon.

 

[Pi brat]

That's why a new representation vote holds so much promise:
1. Less cost than legal proceedings
2. Equally effective at preventing USAPA from decimating west careers on an ill-conceived juggernaut
3. May ultimately unseat USAPA from their position as CBA
4. Provides sufficient uncertainty in the mind of management for them to justify suspending negotiations

In other words, there's more than one way to skin a tyrannical cat.

Take this for what it's worth, but I voted for ALPA in the first election because I didn't think USAPA could pull their plan off. There is not a snowball's chance in XXXX that a representation vote will go against USAPA, right now. You guys have a hard time listening. You didn't believe it when you were told that the first time and you don't seem to be listening now.

 

[Black Swan]

That's why a new representation vote holds so much promise:
1. Less cost than legal proceedings
2. Equally effective at preventing USAPA from decimating west careers on an ill-conceived juggernaut
3. May ultimately unseat USAPA from their position as CBA
4. Provides sufficient uncertainty in the mind of management for them to justify suspending negotiations

In other words, there's more than one way to skin a tyrannical cat.

You have no idea how much the East pilots HATE ALPA. You have NO chance of getting them back. Wait till more info comes out on the pension. It can only get worse for ALPA. Ask the MDA guys. Ask any East pilot. We get our blood up when that miserable institution is mentioned. We have the numbers. We will deny them, again. 30 yrs in ALPA. and the pension and Nicolau sealed the death warrant for them.