US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvthe9]

Not bad actually. Just got an update today from my LEC Chairman. Basically posturing. ALPA (both CO and UA) put a shot across the bow.

Same old games from the UA management team. They don't want to commit to some basic non-economic issues in the stand still agreement. Stuff like not flying each other's routes until a joint contract, no furloughs or added/subtracted flying on either side until a joint contract etc. Very basic stuff, just like the DL/NW merger to avoid whipsawing and drawn out contract negotiations. No synergies from us until we have a joint CBA.

CO's MEC says that Smisek, while not a pushover, also understands the importance of a cooperative climate with the pilots. The current roadblock is due to UA's clowns. Smisek happens to be in China, and the word is that when he gets back there will probably be some changes to the management side of the negotiating table.

Interestingly, last week before Smisek left town, we secured an agreement for UA to cover our merger integration costs on both sides, meaning ALPA's merger assessment will be refunded.

Next week we have a local council meeting and will have EWR reps from CO present. Unlike US/AW, we actually have a pretty good working relationship with our CO counterparts.

It's OK oldie. Your jealousy is completely understandable.

nobody is wanting you guys to have issues, especially like what went on here. As long as both sides stay real, it will work. And at least the economy is better, and CO cannot catch you at one point in time where things were not so good, and use it to skewer you for eternity.

 

[767jetz]

nobody is wanting you guys to have issues, especially like what went on here. As long as both sides stay real, it will work. And at least the economy is better, and CO cannot catch you at one point in time where things were not so good, and use it to skewer you for eternity.

No jealousy here. I hope it works out for you. I've been "livin' the dream" for over 5 years now. Wouldn't wish it on anyone, even you.

I have to admit I had my flame suit on awaiting the responses.

I guess you guys have a softer side after all.

 

[Benz M-100]

And at least the economy is better, and CO cannot catch you at one point in time where things were not so good, and use it to skewer you for eternity.

That says it all. Thank you, luv.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I have to admit I had my flame suit on awaiting the responses.

I guess you guys have a softer side after all.

Go figure!

 

[nic4us]

Hey Nic, remember Piedmont 1984 was one of our comparisons? He is hired in 1984, and your idea of a plan is to put a 1997 hire on top of him.

Well If he was hired in 1984 as his name suggest, no 1997 hire was put in front of him. As a matter of fact I just looked and the most junior 1984 hire was hired 12-12-1984 and is one number in front of a West pilot hired in july 1989, 5 years not 13. early 1984 hires are matched with 88 hires, 83 hires matched with 86 hires.

Probably why piedmont1984 makes reasonable post on this thread. This deal did not hurt him at all.

As a matter of fact, only 439 West pilots were put infront of the 12-12-94 hire, and prior to the merger he was number 1141 and after he is number 1660, but the new company is much larger and his job security increased exponentially.

I get your angst over the fact that indeed an east 85 hire is matched with a West 97 hire, or even more so that an 88 hire is matched to a 2004 hire. But the simple fact of the matter is Nic did not put them there. The 2004 hire did not jump 16 years, he was not added to your list. He filled out an application, he got hired, he was on the bottom of the list, then presto a merger happens and he is still on the bottom of the list, nothing changed for him (or the 88 hire). You make it sound like the '04 hire could go from the street to being senior to east captains.

Now which side of the arguement wants to take people off the street and make them senior to 80% of the other sides captains? Most of which have more LOS than those very same east 89-90 or later hires.

My idea of a plan is since we cannot decide a fair solution we let a neutral third party decide. But if one side reneges on that agreement, we do the expensive thing and let the courts decide.

 

[Benz M-100]

Well, I'm an '87 hire slotted AFTER a Nov 2003 AW guy. NEVER furloughed. 15 years is worth NOTHING???? HMMMMMMM, don't think I wish to sit still for THAT. What a surprise there's been a few s#^@tstorms. I'm not makin any predictions and TRUST ME, I've heard ALL the arguments over that last 3 years of lurking, but this simply does NOT pass any "common sense" test to me.

I really have nothing to add here as far as arguments go. I said YEARS ago that this (the nic) was an UNTENABLE result. Guess I had something right for once. Hard line Westies will NEVER understand apparently. K, fine! I've adjusted.

Ain't mergers GREAT?????! l

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Well, I'm an '87 hire slotted AFTER a Nov 2003 AW guy. NEVER furloughed. 15 years is worth NOTHING???? HMMMMMMM, don't think I wish to sit still for THAT. What a surprise there's been a few s#^@tstorms. I'm not makin any predictions and TRUST ME, I've heard ALL the arguments over that last 3 years of lurking, but this simply does NOT pass any "common sense" test to me.

I really have nothing to add here as far as arguments go. I said YEARS ago that this (the nic) was an UNTENABLE result. Guess I had something right for once. Hard line Westies will NEVER understand apparently. K, fine! I've adjusted.

Ain't mergers GREAT?????! l

Yes you did have it right, GRABER, and TASHIMA, understood it also, as bad as LOA 93 is, any improvements in working conditions and pay would all be NEGATED and benefit the WEST, because as the EAST has seen in ANY MERGER, (look whose flying 35% of EAST FLYING, MESA's problems , PHX (that great O&D HUB) a contract will have to have some sort of language in it for the CORP to DOWNSIZE,and we all know which group with the NIC would take it in the shorts again, remember SAN, LAX, SFO, BWI, MIA, ORF, ROA,BWI, well BENZ, you do get it, LUV that group BLAMING of all things THE RC4, and how ALPA had there handle on it , yea just like an EAST PENSION! MM!

 

[Metroyet]

How about this little scenario.

What happens if the Company Accepts a DOH list with other decent contractual gains, and it passes by 55%, (as all West pilots and a few East pilots will vote No). For about 45seconds a Rousing cheer comes from the East with the "we told you so's" and the big victory parade waving the DOH flag congratulating themselves on a JOINT CONTRACT.

At second #46, AOL files an "unquestionably ripe" DFR Claim against USAPA and a crystal clear Breach of Contract claim against the Company. Is it really hard to imagine a Judge NOT issuing an Emergency Injunction or a Temporary Restraining Order from the Bench? We all know how the trial turned out when ripeness wasn't an issue, that only took 7 or so months to complete resulting in a Permanent Injunction. The difference now is there actually IS a JOINT CONTRACT, giving the Company the perfect out to wash their hands of this Mess, and blame the courts for imposing Nic. USAPA is left standing there, out of chips, millions in the hole, with absolutely nothing to show for years of misery. Checkmate.

Frankly, I don't know what USAPA has to be happy about these days. It's either LOA93 forever, or the above scenario. I appreciate your new EVPs optimism for unity but honestly, he's smoking crack if he thinks the West is going to lift a finger to help the East ratify a DOH contract. I don't know why he's wasting his breath/time even broaching the subject of unity for a contract.

Which way will the talentless Kim Jong Cleary turn? I'm guessing straight into the jaws of litigation...it's a habit of theirs.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

How about this little scenario.

What happens if the Company Accepts a DOH list with other decent contractual gains, and it passes by 55%, (as all West pilots and a few East pilots will vote No). For about 45seconds a Rousing cheer comes from the East with the "we told you so's" and the big victory parade waving the DOH flag congratulating themselves on a JOINT CONTRACT.

At second #46, AOL files an "unquestionably ripe" DFR Claim against USAPA and a crystal clear Breach of Contract claim against the Company. Is it really hard to imagine a Judge NOT issuing an Emergency Injunction or a Temporary Restraining Order from the Bench? We all know how the trial turned out when ripeness wasn't an issue, that only took 7 or so months to complete resulting in a Permanent Injunction. The difference now is there actually IS a JOINT CONTRACT, giving the Company the perfect out to wash their hands of this Mess, and blame the courts for imposing Nic. USAPA is left standing there, out of chips, millions in the hole, with absolutely nothing to show for years of misery. Checkmate.

Frankly, I don't know what USAPA has to be happy about these days. It's either LOA93 forever, or the above scenario. I appreciate your new EVPs optimism for unity but honestly, he's smoking crack if he thinks the West is going to lift a finger to help the East ratify a DOH contract. I don't know why he's wasting his breath/time even broaching the subject of unity for a contract.

Which way will the talentless Kim Jong Cleary turn? I'm guessing straight into the jaws of litigation...it's a habit of theirs.

Do it. You'll lose AGAIN.

One of the reasons cited by the MAJORITY on the ninth was the "stalemate" caused by the TAs and bad arbitration. USAPA has to negotiate in the best interest of ALL of its members. There is no East or West anymore, at least as far as a contract is concerned. Before you go nuts again, I did NOT say that the TAs weren't still in effect, just that East, West and separate ratification are GONE. Get over it.

By the way, the celebrating will go on for a lot longer than 45 seconds. The East (which doesn't exist for contract ratification) won't need the help of any ex-west guys to pass a DOH or LOS contract.

 

[luvthe9]

Well, I'm an '87 hire slotted AFTER a Nov 2003 AW guy. NEVER furloughed. 15 years is worth NOTHING???? HMMMMMMM, don't think I wish to sit still for THAT. What a surprise there's been a few s#^@tstorms. I'm not makin any predictions and TRUST ME, I've heard ALL the arguments over that last 3 years of lurking, but this simply does NOT pass any "common sense" test to me.

I really have nothing to add here as far as arguments go. I said YEARS ago that this (the nic) was an UNTENABLE result. Guess I had something right for once. Hard line Westies will NEVER understand apparently. K, fine! I've adjusted.

Ain't mergers GREAT?????! l

Puts it all in perspective. You could have had a kid start kindergarten, go through elementary and high school, and 2 years of college, and that is how much time you lost against a west guy hired off the street. This is what was told to the west- "the west bears all the risk......" The risk of not getting a REASONABLE integration. They dug their heels in for a massive blunderous windfall. Then the time passed, a new bargaining agent was elected. Now the west pilot is not a west pilot anymore in the eyes of a seniority list or integration. They are all lumped into the USAirways pilots seniority list, losing all distinction and individuality. There is now no option of arbitration. And there, lies the risk. The danger of hanging it out there too long, and it slipped away. Now the only recourse is to sue AFTER the supposed damage. And then you have the risk proving that.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

How about this little scenario.

What happens if the Company Accepts a DOH list with other decent contractual gains, and it passes by 55%, (as all West pilots and a few East pilots will vote No). For about 45seconds a Rousing cheer comes from the East with the "we told you so's" and the big victory parade waving the DOH flag congratulating themselves on a JOINT CONTRACT.

At second #46, AOL files an "unquestionably ripe" DFR Claim against USAPA and a crystal clear Breach of Contract claim against the Company. Is it really hard to imagine a Judge NOT issuing an Emergency Injunction or a Temporary Restraining Order from the Bench? We all know how the trial turned out when ripeness wasn't an issue, that only took 7 or so months to complete resulting in a Permanent Injunction. The difference now is there actually IS a JOINT CONTRACT, giving the Company the perfect out to wash their hands of this Mess, and blame the courts for imposing Nic. USAPA is left standing there, out of chips, millions in the hole, with absolutely nothing to show for years of misery. Checkmate.

Frankly, I don't know what USAPA has to be happy about these days. It's either LOA93 forever, or the above scenario. I appreciate your new EVPs optimism for unity but honestly, he's smoking crack if he thinks the West is going to lift a finger to help the East ratify a DOH contract. I don't know why he's wasting his breath/time even broaching the subject of unity for a contract.

Which way will the talentless Kim Jong Cleary turn? I'm guessing straight into the jaws of litigation...it's a habit of theirs.

What a vivid imagination, your assumptions, 55% breach of this, DFR turning out the same,(BREEGER CASE) hey didn.t JOHN LENNON, sang a song "IMAGINE" It's ok DREAMS are FREE but right now some poor folks out west are down about 2mill and climbing! MM!

 

[luvthe9]

How about this little scenario.

What happens if the Company Accepts a DOH list with other decent contractual gains, and it passes by 55%, (as all West pilots and a few East pilots will vote No). For about 45seconds a Rousing cheer comes from the East with the "we told you so's" and the big victory parade waving the DOH flag congratulating themselves on a JOINT CONTRACT.

At second #46, AOL files an "unquestionably ripe" DFR Claim against USAPA and a crystal clear Breach of Contract claim against the Company. Is it really hard to imagine a Judge NOT issuing an Emergency Injunction or a Temporary Restraining Order from the Bench? We all know how the trial turned out when ripeness wasn't an issue, that only took 7 or so months to complete resulting in a Permanent Injunction. The difference now is there actually IS a JOINT CONTRACT, giving the Company the perfect out to wash their hands of this Mess, and blame the courts for imposing Nic. USAPA is left standing there, out of chips, millions in the hole, with absolutely nothing to show for years of misery. Checkmate.

Frankly, I don't know what USAPA has to be happy about these days. It's either LOA93 forever, or the above scenario. I appreciate your new EVPs optimism for unity but honestly, he's smoking crack if he thinks the West is going to lift a finger to help the East ratify a DOH contract. I don't know why he's wasting his breath/time even broaching the subject of unity for a contract.

Which way will the talentless Kim Jong Cleary turn? I'm guessing straight into the jaws of litigation...it's a habit of theirs.

I would imagine most rational judges would be haste to march into a ratified contract, which is an INTERNAL UNION AFFAIR and bust it up. Many, many contracts have been approved by slimmer margins than you propose, and that does not qualify for intervention. Based on what the 9th said, if someone tries to get an injunction against a ratified contract, one clearly that does not have to have the Nicolau Award in it, and uses the Nic as the "harm" it will be over and done with in minutes, denied. As far as the unity thing goes? We all know how the west did all in their power to keep the east under LOA 93. That, was a HUGE tactical blunder.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

55% did you look at the EVP election results, a CHIP shot!MM!

 

[Metroyet]

Do it. You'll lose AGAIN.

One of the reasons cited by the MAJORITY on the ninth was the "stalemate" caused by the TAs and bad arbitration. USAPA has to negotiate in the best interest of ALL of its members. There is no East or West anymore, at least as far as a contract is concerned. Before you go nuts again, I did NOT say that the TAs weren't still in effect, just that East, West and separate ratification are GONE. Get over it.

By the way, the celebrating will go on for a lot longer than 45 seconds. The East (which doesn't exist for contract ratification) won't need the help of any ex-west guys to pass a DOH or LOS contract.

Heard it all before. Every point you're making is just as irrelevant as it always has been. The West didn't "lose" anything. They were told to "come back after ratification" more or less. There is no rulings or history on record that should indicate to you that USAPA is free to evade binding arbitration because the MAJORITY doesn't like the result. Getting your DOH contract is the equivalent to going "all in". No turning back. Joint Contract. BTW, the semi-tough sounding bravado that you won't need the help of the West to pass a DOH contract is precisely why this is going back to court. The inference, of course, is that you feel entitled to shove whatever you want down the throats of the West pilots because you think they can't defend themselves. A. that's just cowardly, and B. nothing based in reality thus should give you any confidence as to your ability to pull this off. Honestly, remove the ripeness issue "unquestionably" and what do you have? Just as a reminder, two Judges said you have already violated the Law/DFR, and the other two said you simply haven't done it "yet". Also, for the trillionth time, the Nic. was NEVER on trial.

I'm awed at your blind confidence.

There is an East and West. It survives in the TA. That document, and the 3 parties legal obligations aren't going anywhere.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Heard it all before. Every point you're making is just as irrelevant as it always has been. The West didn't "lose" anything. They were told to "come back after ratification" more or less. There is no rulings or history on record that should indicate to you that USAPA is free to evade binding arbitration because the MAJORITY doesn't like the result. Getting your DOH contract is the equivalent to going "all in". No turning back. Joint Contract. BTW, the semi-tough sounding bravado that you won't need the help of the West to pass a DOH contract is precisely why this is going back to court. The inference, of course, is that you feel entitled to shove whatever you want down the throats of the West pilots because you think they can't defend themselves. A. that's just cowardly, and B. nothing based in reality thus should give you any confidence as to your ability to pull this off. Honestly, remove the ripeness issue "unquestionably" and what do you have? Just as a reminder, two Judges said you have already violated the Law/DFR, and the other two said you simply haven't done it "yet". Also, for the trillionth time, the Nic. was NEVER on trial.

I'm awed at your blind confidence.

There is an East and West. It survives in the TA. That document, and the 3 parties legal obligations aren't going anywhere.

It's YOUR cash. You're welcome to waste it as you see fit.