US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/29- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[PullUp]

You expect the west to accept the total windfall of a DOH list with C&R's. Stalemate once again.

I don't see a stalemate, I see an open path ahead. 'West'? 'Accept'? Those are now obsolete words. Our all-encompassing duly elected and official union representing all pilots will negotiate, propose, and put up for a vote any new agreement. If certain members of the union don't like it, vote no.
After a new agreement is in place, members may sue for DFR. This is always the case when a new contract is ratified, with any union (until the statue of limitations run out).
Unless the AOL is willing to stonewall the issue and appeal to the Supremes, the next step is to work toward a new agreement.
Only one request to the negotiating comittee: schedule the vote for January 2nd, please.
Have a nice day.

 

[767jetz]

I don't see a stalemate, I see an open path ahead.

The stalemate I refer to is the one that will come after said contract is voted in if it does not contain the nic. The west pilots have made it clear that anything less will compel them to pursue an "unquestionably ripe" DFR suit against USAPA. This will lead to many more months or even years of litigation. And whether or not they can obtain a legal means to prevent such a contract from being implemented while litigation is ongoing remains to be seen.

The other element that remains to be seen is how the company will respond to a contract not containing the the nic award. No one can say with any certainty if the company would become defendants by violating the Transition Agreement.

Throughout the whole process there are many other hurdles, any one of which could derail any progress. One that comes to mind is recalls or even union de-certification by those who become dissatisfied by any perceived lack of progress or meaningful gains in a new contract.

So while you are correct to say that CURRENTLY your union has a green light to proceed, there is no way ANYONE on either side can predict what the final outcome will look like. There is only speculation. As someone else already pointed out, this is like a three way chess game, and the strategy of all sides (union, AOL, and company) will play out over time.

 

[767intl]

They totally blew their chance to get a decent deal on the Wye. Even Prater expressed grave concern with what was an absolute miscarriage of ALPA merger intent. Kind of like a guy following an armored car, and the doors fly open. The guy knows it is wrong to keep the money, but instead of turning it in, and getting a decent reward and satisfaction of doing the right deed, he takes it home. Later on, instead of being a good lesson for everyone, his deeds land him in jail, and set a horrendous lesson in ethics and conduct. The west got their windfall, and ran with it. They were warned to do the right thing, but went for it all. The time to pay for that is now, and the judges of the 9th have seen their plan has lost its' way.

"The River Will Deliver!" They refused to listen to their own merger attorney, Freund. Remember who led them down that no-compromise path: ALPA. ALPA's faulty polling told the west that ALPA would survive. But as Doug Mowery pointed out 2 years ago, ALPA's polls didn't account for the 30% of East pilots who hung up on the wilson Poll.

I saw nothing like what you are claiming in any of the 9th rulings. Sounds like personal requests coming from a disgruntled and worried west pilot. The end is coming for any and all things associated with the Nic and its' ilk. It is over. The next big win is either MDA or the LOA 93 pay. I say the LOA 93 win is coming soon. Love the way the company tried to get around the freeze language. Get the champagne chilled for that one.

For a 2nd time in a month the Ninth kicked West buns back to PHX and gave the desert judge another lesson in jurisprudence. It's going to be interesting to see how they pay off their current attorneys and if anyone will even take their case down the road.

But hold on, Swan, it's not over. We're still eagerly awaiting another sage post from West legal prognosticator, hp_fa. He's still out there. Long vacation, I guess. His last prediction? The Ninth would review en banc. As he said before he went in hiding:


Sorry, I have had a busy day away from reading the decision,
but I have read it.

First off, I will be consistent and say that I believe the majority
got it wrong, but that is my opinion and it is as valid (or not)
as anyone else's opinion.

Anyway, that is what I see from here. I think that the 9th would
grant an en banc hearing, but then I thought the Addington
appellants would win the appeal.


The Ninth majority got it wrong? Evidently not. Not even one other judge on the Ninth even wanted to hear an en banc. That says it all.

 

[nic4us]

I have talked to MANY of them. Your statement is only true when framed as “the East pilots not accepting the arbitration”. BUT, cite a few examples of how Nic put this list together and it would surprise you how sympathetic they become.

I suppose it depends on whose moccasins you are walking in.


Driver B)

These examples you cite of how the Nic was put together, are they from the reasoning Nic used or are they your spin on how unfair you think it was?

Frankly, I am one of the biggest proponents of the Nic on this board, and even I find reasons to be sympathetic toward certain east positions. So I do not talk to OAL pilots much about the situation we are in, but they always ask. So I let the f/o explain what is going on then I just give them 3 numbers.

1. My AWA seniority 6??/1884
2. My Nic seniority 19??/5400
3. My usapa DOH seniority theft number 42??/5400.

Their response is always the same. I quote the last UAL pilot to get the stats. "Holy XXXX, no wonder you guys are so pissed." "You need to sue those XXXXXXX$ into oblivion." A response to which I concurred.

 

[Al Legheny]

Saw this and thought I'd pass it along...




CRIMI RECALL EFFORT A SHAM


July 8, 2010
Fellow Pilots,

The EVP election campaign saw some good old fashioned dirt plying the ethernet. It seems that some folks just can’t pass up the opportunity to latch onto the first bit of unsavory intel that they can get their hands on, especially when it furthers their political objectives. Steve Crimi’s lapse of judgement in taking a job with Freedom Airlines offered them a tantalizing morsel.

Enter Mark King and Doug Mowery.

Mark, while justifiably lauded for his role as a USAPA founder, and Doug are viciously critical of many of the policies and practices of USAPA and are open opponents of the current leadership. While the bulk of this disdain is aimed at low level items such as whether officials stay at the Sterling in CLT rather than the Sheraton (now a crew hotel BTW) they have also long been proponents of getting a quick deal (contract), read Kirby Proposal, and living to fight another day. Where have we seen that “live to fight another day” theme before?

Regardless of Mark’s and Doug’s clear right to express their opinions, the policies and practices of USAPA are a direct result of the process that Mark helped put into place as a founder. The plain truth is that Mark and Doug are not satisfied with the answer that this democratic process has produced. In their minds the will of the Pilots expressed through their vote and the consensus of the BPR, duly elected, does not stand up to their own sense of reasoning. Their solution is to circumvent the very process which Mark himself espoused as a founder so that they can place their own will ahead of yours.

Mark King and Doug Mowery have taken it upon themselves to launch a recall effort aimed at Steve Crimi. They claim to be doing so out of righteousness, taking great liberty with labels like “union buster” stating that Steve’s employment at Freedom - that is to say going to Freedom, getting a type rating then resigning - mandates his immediate recall from elected office. So lets look at the only facts that are germane to the recall issue.

While Steve openly admits that if he had it to do over he would not have gone to Freedom, he is NOT a SCAB and his actions do not rise to the level that Mark and Doug would have you believe
Steve was fairly elected to represent the will of his constituents and is doing so in a demonstrably self-sacrificing fashion - any BPR member will attest to this

What seems abundantly clear is that Mark and Doug view the Freedom issue as an opportunity to make political hay. Doug Mowery ran for office and was soundly defeated, his ideas for the direction of the union have a distinct history and are contrary to the will of the Pilot group as expressed through their vote. Mark has been exceedingly vocal in expressing his dissatisfaction with the current USAPA leadership only to have the very process that he helped put into place refute his thinking as a matter of the consensus of the BPR at a minimum. So for all intents and purposes they are now pursuing an avenue outside of the democratic process to advance their political goals

If Crimi is successfully recalled Mark and Doug are certain to have their own ideas as to who should be elected replace him. Maybe they themselves have an eye on the prize but in any event it will be someone who engenders their political philosophy. If Mark and Doug want to have someone in Steve’s seat beside Steve then they need to respect the democratic process and run their own candidate during the next regular election. Disappointingly it appears that they lack both the patience, and respect for you, to do so.

If we endorse this politically opportunistic circumvention of the democratic process in Crimi’s case then we guarantee that more such maneuvers will follow and the effectiveness of your union will suffer for it. We are winning the endurance contest on the important fronts ladies and gentlemen and we cannot afford to have our momentum disrupted by political Machiavellis.

It gives me no pleasure to shed light on the situation that Mark and Doug have chosen to place themselves in, both men have worked hard to be involved. Nevertheless, the action in which they are engaged represents a danger to the very system which they endeavor to be a part of, therefore it must be addressed.

Get the word out that this effort to recall Steve Crimi must be put down convincingly, and the actions of its perpetrators recognized for what they are really about.

Fraternally,
Captain Jeff Davis
PHL E190

 

[dariencc]

What a bunch of garbage.

Try talking to pilots at other airlines.

They despise us because they see we are unethical and don't honor agreements we make.

Despise us??? I do talk to pilots at other airlines, quite frequently, and don't seem to get the reaction that you describe. Maybe it's you.

And BTW, even if your post is 100% correct, what makes you think the rest of us give a f*** what these other pilots think. They are not directly involved and as a rule are only marginally informed on our situation. Try living your life based on your own convictions. Didn't your Daddy teach you that?

 

[dariencc]

But hold on, Swan, it's not over. We're still eagerly awaiting another sage post from West legal prognosticator, hp_fa. He's still out there. Long vacation, I guess. His last prediction? The Ninth would review en banc. As he said before he went in hiding:


Sorry, I have had a busy day away from reading the decision,
but I have read it.

First off, I will be consistent and say that I believe the majority
got it wrong, but that is my opinion and it is as valid (or not)
as anyone else's opinion.

Anyway, that is what I see from here. I think that the 9th would
grant an en banc hearing, but then I thought the Addington
appellants would win the appeal.

Wait a minute. You mean the clueless idiot attorney from Amherst and NYU Law really did know a bit more than the Arizona paralegal turned flight attendant?

Go figure.

 

[traderjake]

Despise us??? I do talk to pilots at other airlines, quite frequently, and don't seem to get the reaction that you describe. Maybe it's you.

No, it's you and your kind and your wrong.

Their reaction to us when a potential merger occurs tells a different story.

They want nothing to do with us even when they vastly outnumber us.

Why did the Delta pilots oppose merging with us but accepted the Northwest pilots?

 

[Boeing Driver]

Someone else's routes?

Sorry to inform you but the company you worked for no longer exist. It was involved in a merger back in 2005, in which America West holdings corp,( tho owner of the airline I worked for) aquired US Airways Group (the owner of your former airline), and adopted the new name of US Airways Group Inc.

So the way I see it, you are flying 100% of your block hours on our routes, and the West flies 100% on our routes. But I do not want that to stop. I do not want you gone. You have been given more than your fair share, and I am okay with that.

What I am not okay with is the east's dishonorable attempt at stealing from their coworkers. Their downright ignorance of the position they are in, and their smug condescending attitude.

By the way, I fly those routes in an airplane my company brought to the merger, one of which makes up over 35% of the new airlines total fleet.

This is why you and the rest of the AWA pilots will continue to be our enemy. And yes make no mistake about it you are, and will be treated as such.

You very loudly proclaim how YOU are entitled to everything that the east has; things that we have sacrificed for 25 to 30
years for. What you conveniently gloss over is that AWA pilots are not only flying 24% of the East routes, but that is 24% of our jobs that have been TRANSFERRED to the AWA pilots. Put another way - that is 24% of AWA that stole OUR jobs.

There is a huge discrepancy in what is going on here - the AWA pilots want to take jobs from the East, in other words they want to fly routes, and airplanes that they did not bring to the merger; while the East pilots just want to keep what they brought to the merger.

What is wrong with this picture?

I can assure you that we will never give up on protecting our seniority rights, and preventing the absolute wholesale transfer of opportunity and jobs that is embodied in the Nic award.

Boeing Driver

 

[PullUp]

The stalemate I refer to is the one that will come after said contract is voted in if it does not contain the nic. The west pilots have made it clear that anything less will compel them to pursue an "unquestionably ripe" DFR suit against USAPA. This will lead to many more months or even years of litigation. And whether or not they can obtain a legal means to prevent such a contract from being implemented while litigation is ongoing remains to be seen.

The other element that remains to be seen is how the company will respond to a contract not containing the the nic award. No one can say with any certainty if the company would become defendants by violating the Transition Agreement.

Throughout the whole process there are many other hurdles, any one of which could derail any progress. One that comes to mind is recalls or even union de-certification by those who become dissatisfied by any perceived lack of progress or meaningful gains in a new contract.

So while you are correct to say that CURRENTLY your union has a green light to proceed, there is no way ANYONE on either side can predict what the final outcome will look like. There is only speculation. As someone else already pointed out, this is like a three way chess game, and the strategy of all sides (union, AOL, and company) will play out over time.

Any individual(s) dissatisfied with their representation after the contract is ratified can sue for DFR. I cannot believe any judge would grant an injunction due to its crippling effect on day to day operations and the high costs involved therein. In my opinion a DFR win going forward will be a long shot with the 'wide range of reasonableness' standard.
Decertification? Get real. The majority of USAPA members are EUPHORIC. Maybe when there is a west majority, the tide will turn. That is a long way off and remains to be seen.
So, lets see...the immediate future looks good: the west can sue after a ratified contract is in place; reason and economics dictate that an injunction is a fairy tale; decertification is a futuristic concept at best; and AOL is broke.
I stand by my previous statements that it looks like blue skies ahead.
Have a great day.

 

[cactusboy53]

I haven't been called dude in many years. Mr. Miyagi was a very patient old man like many of us in the east. He gave Daniel great advice just like SSM&P has given USAPA. We usually don't prematurely adjudicate like the west seems to do. That younger smarter thing has really put you guys and gals in a bad spot. Nicolau didn't do you any favors. Wait your turn just like the rest of us have done for many years. From my perspective Dougie and Scotty should keep this thing seperate forever or just split it up when the time comes. None of us back here want anything the west has............period. You guys are already flying 20 percent of our flying anyway. It is over Johnny!

Hate

I was thinking more that the AWA pilot group was Daniel-son, Myagi is the the AOL groiup & counsel. Johnny would be the USAPA group, Cobra Sensi (sp) protraid by SSM&P (cool, confident & calculating) , and the kid screaming "get him a body bag" might be Cleary....IMHO.

We will just sit back and wait patiently on what contract is put up for a vote. Time (and a better contract, presently) is all we have. I do hope & pray that you guys win your LOA 93 grievance. That would be a huge victory on the way to better wages & contract conditions.....I have always thought so.

Oh, BTW. ....it's not my flying or your flying......it is our flying, or should have been over two years ago. The old AAA & AWA are non-entities. Wax on, wax off.....

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Wow, what a day of current events, the 9th"s 2 affirmative opinions , someone plz quote them about USAPA.s ability to abandon them like ALPA( WYE RIVER etc), then we have WAKE(nuff said), HIS comrade(waterboard, washboard BYBEE, that almost got disbarred thing), THE 2 DISSENTING OPINIONS, go figure, NOW 11 EN BANC judges,say"NO VOTE REQUIRED HERE," IF YA DIDN"T GET IT THE 1st TIME! SPEND MORE MONEY( your attorney the good DR. and sidekick kelly , WAKE, ETC, just thought those ARIZONA ATTORNEYS could use a 2mill plus cactus pilot stimulus)spend it like you got it! OUR unbiased boys CLEARly, DIRECTly, say PRATER disengenuos, then our boy PAUL RICE(767JETZ BRO) delivers the list( a BARGANING POSITION, from an INTERNAL UNION process to DP). So here we are, USAPA having a great year, and next step AOL filing a DFR, (they will really have to defend NIC illogic next time, get in line with EMPIRE , USSHUTTLE, GO FOR IT! That will be great) BY the time this is over DP without that INJUNCTION THING(rember USAPA special motion to get it vacated) Will slice and dice this company, and some instead of joing the fight against MNGHMNT will be left out in the cold, the real enemy will fall prey to their own GREED and be left behind , CLT update 110% right on, PHX sugar coated it, BTW, those PHX REPS appear to be just just the AOL , AWAPPA, voice to our UNION, USAPA BEST MONEY I EVER SPENT! MM! JUDGE COUNT USAPA 13/// OTHER CROWD 2! PAWNS more like " gambling AA! The RICO needs to be pursued, USAPA didn't seek criminal charges for obvious reasons, we as members just want OUR money for DAMAGES caused by the PERPETRAITORS, Their LUCKY WE DON"T DO IT FOR THE ADDINGTON THING!

 

[cleardirect]

This is why you and the rest of the AWA pilots will continue to be our enemy. And yes make no mistake about it you are, and will be treated as such.

You very loudly proclaim how YOU are entitled to everything that the east has; things that we have sacrificed for 25 to 30
years for. What you conveniently gloss over is that AWA pilots are not only flying 24% of the East routes, but that is 24% of our jobs that have been TRANSFERRED to the AWA pilots. Put another way - that is 24% of AWA that stole OUR jobs.

There is a huge discrepancy in what is going on here - the AWA pilots want to take jobs from the East, in other words they want to fly routes, and airplanes that they did not bring to the merger; while the East pilots just want to keep what they brought to the merger.

What is wrong with this picture?

I can assure you that we will never give up on protecting our seniority rights, and preventing the absolute wholesale transfer of opportunity and jobs that is embodied in the Nic award.

Boeing Driver

OK.

Tell the company to furlough 1700 east pilots.

Stay on the worst contract in the industry.

Hand over those 190's and any new delivered aircraft in the last 5 years.

That is what you had.

 

[Pilot692]

Despise us??? I do talk to pilots at other airlines, quite frequently, and don't seem to get the reaction that you describe. Maybe it's you.

And BTW, even if your post is 100% correct, what makes you think the rest of us give a f*** what these other pilots think. They are not directly involved and as a rule are only marginally informed on our situation. Try living your life based on your own convictions. Didn't your Daddy teach you that?

Were they DAL pilots? Recall that Lee Moak, MEC Chairman, stated that he went along with Delta's business plan which included putting us out of business. Lee stated this at the C41 hanging.
Other airline's pilots haven't a clue about what has been going on, much less what happened in the final ruling.

 

[luvn737s]

It's amazing that a handful of east pilots use this board to make up for their own lack of relevance or credibility. They find a couple of west pilots upon whom to purge their hatred and unconcealed self-loathing at remaining teathered to a failed career well after the the time to move on.

But this is kept in perspective and not unnecessarily extrapolated. In other words, a few turkeys can't inflict much permanent damage over a chat board.

Bring on the representation vote. The east's history of fracturing in order to protect their personal interests can and will be used against them and USAPA can be tossed in favor of no union representation. USAPA can't be fixed and when the DFR is in full bloom, it will be too expensive to repair as well.

The west pilot's interests are best served by delaying a contract further, denying those USAPA supporters set on stapling the west from harvesting their ill-gotten fruit. Let them retire under LOA93 and wonder what could have been if they had just started with reasonable goals from the beginning.