US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/29- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Metroyet]

Question for you 767. Do you really believe your United guys that have been with company over ten years and are now furloughed should be below every Continental pilot in a combined list?

You mean the 10 year guys with less than 4 years of active service?

 

[Crzipilot]

Do you feel in a scenerio, which republic purchases USAirways, that the #1 guy at CHQ/Shuttle America/Republic, should go right in front of the #1 guy at US?

Or take VA, their #1 guy go next to the #1 guy at US?

 

[88 B.T.D.]

You mean the 10 year guys with less than 4 years of active service?

Actually both of my friends have about 7 years, but even with 4, should they have quit and looked for work somewhere else, or just understand that the industry is cyclical and keep their temp job which pays more now and go back to the United job which has earning potential later?

 

[traderjake]

The last three seniority integrations were slotting by equipment.

The VA Captain should be next to the US Group 2 Captain.

The Republic CRJ Captain should be next to the E 190 Captain.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The last three seniority integrations were slotting by equipment.

The VA Captain should be next to the US Group 2 Captain.

The Republic CRJ Captain should be next to the E 190 Captain.

Nope. USAPA constitution says DOH, there would be some conditions and restrictions. Of course, since it's doubtful they would do that peacefully, it would be in accordance with McCaskill-Bond.

BY the way, if you are including U/AWE in that three, it's gonna be DOH with C&R. Where have you been?

 

[Mr Furlough]

EXCUSE ME you already took advantage of your projected attrition during the arbitration. STEALING WEST SENIORITY TO FAVOR YOUR GROUP is contrary to federal law.

If you did not have that projected attrition, Nic would have not given you guys the great deal he did.

He probably would have put Monda about 517 numbers junior to Odell, and all the MDA furloughs would have found themselves in the same status they had on the day of the merger furloughed.

I can hardly think that we are truly "merged" today. You hang your hat on the PID date.....an arbortrary date udilized-sometimes-in mergers. I was in fact recalled from furlough some 7 months prior to Nicolaus decision that indecated that I didn't bring a job to the merger?!? Therefor, with a '89 DOH I was placed junior to EVERYONE on the west list. Excuse me, but how is that favoring the east?

 

[BoeingBoy]

With a merger there are two dates that are anything but arbitrary. The first is what ALPA calls the PID, when it is almost certain that a merger will occur. The second is the actual date the companies merge. One could argue the pros and cons of either of the two dates, but would have a hard time saying they're arbitrary.

To use another date - like after all furloughed pilots on one side had been recalled or when pilots on the other side had been furloughed - is to truly pick an arbitrary date to stack the deck.

Jim

 

[Mr Furlough]

With a merger there are two dates that are anything but arbitrary. The first is what ALPA calls the PID, when it is almost certain that a merger will occur. The second is the actual date the companies merge. One could argue the pros and cons of either of the two dates, but would have a hard time saying they're arbitrary.

To use another date - like after all furloughed pilots on one side had been recalled or when pilots on the other side had been furloughed - is to truly pick an arbitrary date to stack the deck.

Jim

Not sure where you're going with the "stacking the deck" comment.....interesting. So, if you don't count pilots whom were hired in 1989-placing them junior to your 2 year guys and gals-even if they've been recalled..that's not stacking the deck.....please.

In your own ratified words-your contract defines SENIORITY as "Seniority of a Pilot shall begin on the Pilot’s Date of Hire." East ratified contract states "Seniority of a pilot, and longevity for pay, vacation, sick leave, and retirement purposes shall begin to accrue on the date the pilot first reports to the Company's Pilot Training Program and shall continue to accrue except as otherwise provided in this Agreement."

In fact, in both agreements a pilots "seniority" continues to accrue while on furlough.

The rest of this junk is simply smoke and mirrrors. I get it. You want a lion's share of our attrition. No bump and flush. And strong furlough protection. Guess what? We all do.

But the foundation of both contracts is simply DOH.

 

[Metroyet]

Actually both of my friends have about 7 years, but even with 4, should they have quit and looked for work somewhere else, or just understand that the industry is cyclical and keep their temp job which pays more now and go back to the United job which has earning potential later?

That's really a personal question left up to the individual. I know plenty of UAL furloughees that did indeed get other jobs, never looked back, and declined recall. How many of the nearly 1900 East furloughees actually returned? Going back based on a theoretical "earning potential" when you've been through (respectively) 1 or 2 recent bankruptcies is a speculative crap shoot at best. I know I wouldn't have returned if I had found a decent job in the interim. I know what you're getting at, but in my mind, years of service is just ONE facet to a much larger, dynamic question. DOH is overly simplistic. So let's assume the AAA/AMW merger, are you suggesting that a AMW pilot experience some kind of career degradation because a furloughee, from another airline, rolled the dice and accepted recall to an airline whose impeding liquidation was imminent?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not sure where you're going with the "stacking the deck" comment....

Simple - you picked an arbitrary date to show that you should be higher on the Nic list. By picking a date that had no association with the merger, you wanted to stack the Nic deck in your favor by being considered active instead of furloughed.

Yes, every airline where the pilots are unionized that I know of uses DOH at that airline to determine seniority. But when merging carriers, you're by definition taking two company's seniority lists and merging them to arrive at the seniority list for the new company. The "gold standard", if one exists, is to use the negotiation, mediation, binding arbitration process to determine the seniority list for the merged company. That has been the standard method of arriving at a merged seniority list in nearly every deregulation era airline merger.

Jim

 

[Mr Furlough]

Simple - you picked an arbitrary date to show that you should be higher on the Nic list. By picking a date that had no association with the merger, you wanted to stack the Nic deck in your favor by being considered active instead of furloughed.

Yes, every airline where the pilots are unionized that I know of uses DOH at that airline to determine seniority. But when merging carriers, you're by definition taking two company's seniority lists and merging them to arrive at the seniority list for the new company. The "gold standard", if one exists, is to use the negotiation, mediation, binding arbitration process to determine the seniority list for the merged company. That has been the standard method of arriving at a merged seniority list in nearly every deregulation era airline merger.

Jim

Jim, I didn't pick a date. I mearly suggusted that the PID date isn't a hard fast rule in mergers. In my opinion, this merger is a good case not to use it. In any event, it doesn't really matter. In my view, the whole thing is in a do-over mode.....rightfully so.

Hopefully, our future will yield a ratifiable intergration

 

[Metroyet]

Simple - you picked an arbitrary date to show that you should be higher on the Nic list. By picking a date that had no association with the merger, you wanted to stack the Nic deck in your favor by being considered active instead of furloughed.

Yes, every airline where the pilots are unionized that I know of uses DOH at that airline to determine seniority. But when merging carriers, you're by definition taking two company's seniority lists and merging them to arrive at the seniority list for the new company. The "gold standard", if one exists, is to use the negotiation, mediation, binding arbitration process to determine the seniority list for the merged company. That has been the standard method of arriving at a merged seniority list in nearly every deregulation era airline merger.

Jim

When the "Gold" standard is completely void of honor and integrity, and has already been found to be illegal except for a minor timing issue that USAPA is constitutionally committed to satisfy, any sane person has to question how "Gold" this standard is...and to whom is it Golden. Those who defend the "Gold" standard are reading the same script as those that cross picket lines. The rational is identical.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

When the "Gold" standard is completely void of honor and integrity, and has already been found to be illegal except for a minor timing issue that USAPA is constitutionally committed to satisfy, any sane person has to question how "Gold" this standard is...and to whom is it Golden. Those who defend the "Gold" standard are reading the same script as those that cross picket lines. The rational is identical.

OH NO METRO MAN , word up, take a look at the ECONOMIC DATA around you, this AIRLINE, will not be here a year from now, it will be sliced diced and spit up, 8% domestic market , PHX , SWA will bleed it dry , your best bet LEAVE! MM! Any EAST pilot holds at least a valuable position to any entity moving forward your PHX hub is a money loser wake up ! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Simple - you picked an arbitrary date to show that you should be higher on the Nic list. By picking a date that had no association with the merger, you wanted to stack the Nic deck in your favor by being considered active instead of furloughed.

Yes, every airline where the pilots are unionized that I know of uses DOH at that airline to determine seniority. But when merging carriers, you're by definition taking two company's seniority lists and merging them to arrive at the seniority list for the new company. The "gold standard", if one exists, is to use the negotiation, mediation, binding arbitration process to determine the seniority list for the merged company. That has been the standard method of arriving at a merged seniority list in nearly every deregulation era airline merger.

Jim

JIM did you do some homework, Did you tell me where a guy hired in 83 plus, same day as there WST counterparts fall on the NIC, if not I have that data and like N924ps will enlighten you what a travesty the NIC is but since you are so quick to correct EAST posters I'll give you the first shot to tell US how off the mark we are, BTW the cleaners called and said your uniforms are ready! MM!

 

[nic4us]

There was NO HINT from the Ninth that a future DFR would prevail, only that it could exist.

"under the pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR"

I guess that a hypothetical future DFR would be painless, if usapa had a snowballs chance in Phoenix of reneging on a binding arbitration contract.