US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/29- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[N924PS]

Well then sir why don't you spell it out for us...what don't you like about the NIC (DOA)

Lemme get this straight ......if an Easy guy was furloughed at the time of the merger.....but is recalled.....
and his LOS is longer than a West Capt.....are you suggesting that he be placed below the 8 year West Capt......
An East guy with 12 years LOS should get a Capt seat when one comes OPEN.......
so put to rest this whole notion of stealing something......nothing is stolen......when you get the seat
when the is an opening.......NUFF SAID.

NICDOA
NPJB

The 16 year LOS East pilot was a junior reserve F/O if not furloughed. That is what his seniority "bought. An 8 year West Captain was junior perhaps, but in the left seat. That is what his seniority "bought."

Nicolau should have accounted for the East's higher attrition. That's what I dislike about the Nic. Other than that, it complied with ALPA Merger Policy. I agree with Captain Bruscia (pilot neutral on the Nic). "Minimum consideration should be g iven to those USAirways pilots already recalled; that the treatment of them as active pilots consistent with their present status would serve to recognize the substantial time they had already invested in their airline."

What do you suppose USAPA will offer in Section 22 that addresses this disparity and awards the West pilots some Captain vacancies before every East pilot checks out ahead of them?

I can hardly wait to see that section passed across the negotiating table.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Al, me, Oldie or anyone never talked about early medical retirement. Only you did.

This is the first I've heard of "early medical retirements". There has been much talk about early retirement medical but I don't think "early medical retirement" even exists. There is disability - could one of the infallible 4 have made a mistake?

Jim, at age 65, there is NO Post-Retirement Medical. LOA 93 is clear. What part of that don't you understand? Under LOA 93 Sick bank not used by age 65 has zero value.

I take it you haven't read the section of LOA 93 I pointed oldie to either.

Jim

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The 16 year LOS East pilot was a junior reserve F/O if not furloughed. That is what his seniority "bought. An 8 year West Captain was junior perhaps, but in the left seat. That is what his seniority "bought."

Nicolau should have accounted for the East's higher attrition. That's what I dislike about the Nic. Other than that, it complied with ALPA Merger Policy. I agree with Captain Bruscia (pilot neutral on the Nic). "Minimum consideration should be g iven to those USAirways pilots already recalled; that the treatment of them as active pilots consistent with their present status would serve to recognize the substantial time they had already invested in their airline."

What do you suppose USAPA will offer in Section 22 that addresses this disparity and awards the West pilots some Captain vacancies before every East pilot checks out ahead of them?

I can hardly wait to see that section passed across the negotiating table.

I believe those will be called "CONDITIONS and RESTRICTIONS" Do you believe those 8 year Captains have the right to displace a Capt hired ahead of them on a DOH list. I believe it was hard to argue in the us-piedmont merger when the PSA system was shutdown and many F/O's with a DOH /LOS on the WEST displaced EAST coast CAPTS, It is what it is remember , " WERE NOT COUNTING ON YOU!" MM! Didn't you get your LOS in the NIC N924ps as the saying goes every cloud has it's SILVER,MM!

 

[Piedmont1984]

Been absent awhile. Is everyone still getting along?

May the Fourth be with you.

 

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

A lot of folks keep bringing up the fact that west pilots "brought" captain positions into this merger.

Please explain what your position would be if we merged with Virgin America. Do you believe all captains, even with less than one year at their airline, should be at least half way up the seniority list.

 

[A320 Driver]

Been absent awhile. Is everyone still getting along?

May the Fourth be with you.

And with YOU!

Hope everyone is enjoying the holiday...

Driver B)

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

A lot of folks keep bringing up the fact that west pilots "brought" captain positions into this merger.

Please explain what your position would be if we merged with Virgin America. Do you believe all captains, even with less than one year at their airline, should be at least half way up the seniority list.

EXACTLY, or JETBLUE ETC, ETC! MM! What happens when the WEST is closed or downsizes, and it will!MM!

 

[N924PS]

I believe those will be called "CONDITIONS and RESTRICTIONS" Do you believe those 8 year Captains have the right to displace a Capt hired ahead of them on a DOH list. I believe it was hard to argue in the us-piedmont merger when the PSA system was shutdown and many F/O's with a DOH /LOS on the WEST displaced EAST coast CAPTS, It is what it is remember , " WERE NOT COUNTING ON YOU!" MM! Didn't you get your LOS in the NIC N924ps as the saying goes every cloud has it's SILVER,MM!

In 1988/1989 seniority and LOS were almost identical. At the time of the PSA/USAir merger I was a senior MD/80 F/O who could have also held reserve BAE-146 Captain.
After the merger with USAir my seniority held the same positions except with no fences, I could now also hold senior F/O or junior Captain back East.

Those mergers complied with ALPA merger policy. This one has been prevented from doing so.

Show me those conditions and restrictions that make a DOH list fair to ALL USAirways pilots. I await them with great anticipation.

The Nicolau Award included the no-bump/no-flush provisions as well as c&r's regarding "new" and "replacement" aircraft.

You really should read the Nicolau Award in it's entirenty some day, you would, I'm sure, find it enlightening.

 

[informed]

Nicolau should have accounted for the East's higher attrition. That's what I dislike about the Nic. Other than that, it complied with ALPA Merger Policy. I agree with Captain Bruscia (pilot neutral on the Nic). "Minimum consideration should be g iven to those USAirways pilots already recalled; that the treatment of them as active pilots consistent with their present status would serve to recognize the substantial time they had already invested in their airline."

Yes we did read the Nicolau, your quote above from said internal union suggestion, is the quintessential reason of the birth of USAPA.

The drumbeat of you have not read the Nicolau, emotions, integrity, your union USAPA is not informing you, etc. Is all moot now with the 9th finding. One of the most important court in the nation said case DISMISSED!

Time to move on and get an industry leading contract.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

In 1988/1989 seniority and LOS were almost identical. At the time of the PSA/USAir merger I was a senior MD/80 F/O who could have also held reserve BAE-146 Captain.
After the merger with USAir my seniority held the same positions except with no fences, I could now also hold senior F/O or junior Captain back East.

Those mergers complied with ALPA merger policy. This one has been prevented from doing so.

Show me those conditions and restrictions that make a DOH list fair to ALL USAirways pilots. I await them with great anticipation.

The Nicolau Award included the no-bump/no-flush provisions as well as c&r's regarding "new" and "replacement" aircraft.

You really should read the Nicolau Award in it's entirenty some day, you would, I'm sure, find it enlightening.

Nic used faulty logic. I've read it IN ITS ENTIRETY, several times. Let me give you a scenario to ponder. In an industry as unstable for employees as this one, where in one's career he might expect a merger with another company every, say, 5-10 years, that If every time that merger took place and NIC style slotting were the predominant rule for seniority integration, then each time the company merges with a younger company the employees in the lower half of seniority lose more and more seniority. Half the list finds their careers basically ended due to mergers. With DOH/LOS, EVERYONE can have a successful career. Eventually, the older, more experienced pilots will retire, and younger ones from the newer companies can move up. It evens out the upgrade times for everyone, so instead of some upgrading in 3-5 years, while some languish as copilots forever, EVERYONE upgrades in 10-15 years, just as if the industry were stable and not in a grow/shrink cycle all of the time.

That's why NIC got it wrong. It doesn't work over the long term. Not just here, but anywhere.

You benefitted by a DOH merger. Now you want to deprive others of the same benefit of a fairly stable career path.

 

[informed]

America West Pilots’ Strategic Mistake

 

[oldiebutgoody]

America West Pilots’ Strategic Mistake

I like this part the best...

...This case underlies the fact that the proper legal strategy is critical to any litigation effort. US Air pilots were represented by top-flight labor lawyer, Lee Seeham. Lee undoubtedly learned many nuances of legal strategy from his father, the legendary labor lawyer Marty Seeham...

quoted from the above link.

Lee Seham and company are my heroes.

 

[informed]

Titanium is required of you to pay for your lawyers and Army of Leonidas mistakes. One recent posters suggestion of the unobtanium badge is the only possible result of your efforts. Time to move on and obtain an industry leading contract that we all deserve.

America West Pilots view of the 9th Circuit Court oral arguments in early 2010

 

[Metroyet]

Titanium is required of you to pay for your lawyers and Army of Leonidas mistakes. One recent posters suggestion of the unobtanium badge is the only possible result of your efforts. Time to move on and obtain an industry leading contract that we all deserve.

America West Pilots view of the 9th Circuit Court oral arguments in early 2010

If the company touches anything but the nic they will be sued for breach of contract. When the case is "unquestionably" ripe, I promise you, the DFR lawsuit will be filed that day. I'd forget about a better contract for the foreseeable future unless you can convince the company to expose themselves to certain litigation. Ratification provides zero legal shelter here. A TRO or Injunction will be applied just like last time when ripeness was determined NOT to be an issue. The difference this time is that there will in fact be a joint contract. No going back. No room to delay. Here's my favorite fact I like to remind folks of.

4 Federal Judges

2 say USAPA has ALREADY violated the law...

2 say USAPA hasn't done it YET.

Of course this fact is cause for celebration somehow for the East.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Yes we did read the Nicolau, your quote above from said internal union suggestion, is the quintessential reason of the birth of USAPA.

The drumbeat of you have not read the Nicolau, emotions, integrity, your union USAPA is not informing you, etc. Is all moot now with the 9th finding. One of the most important court in the nation said case DISMISSED!

Time to move on and get an industry leading contract.

Didn't all merger policy include the no bump no flush provision but i believe that provision doesn't apply to base closures downsizing etc, luved the comment my seniority , I believe your seniority in ANY merger was your DOH , MR924ps I luv the" I got mine,, going to tell you ,what to do because this is what I (924ps) need, Don't have to read the NIC, that was ALPA's merger policy not USAPA's! MM! HAPPY 4th OH ENLIGHTEND!