US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/29- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

That is a great example of facts. However, many will never be able to accept their lottery ticket was a fake and will always persist in calling other things fake to maintain a figment of reality for their fake lottery winnings, all facts notwithstanding.

If an eskimo denies that he lives in a barren, frozen, wasteland, who is gonna be able to persuade him? Hopeless cause.

The reason I coined the term "fake union", is because I know it irritates the pro-usapa posters, is fitting of an organization that sought to misuse the RLA and the NMB certification process as a means of advancing themselves at their co-workers expense, and because I do not agree with labeling them with the banned word, and would get cornfield time for doing so.

The West never had, does not have, a "lottery ticket", real, imagined, or "fake", so really nothing to accept there.

By the way, an eskimo lives in a rich coastal maritime ecosystem. So it would be hard to convince him it was a wasteland, especially coming from a fake union, and it would be even harder to convince him to eat their yellow snow.

 

[Metroyet]

NOW, THEREFORE, in accordance with Section 2, Ninth, of the RLA, as amended, and based upon its investigation pursuant thereto, the Board certifies that the USAPA has been duly designated and authorized to represent for the purposes of the RLA, as amended, the craft or class of Pilots, employees of US Airways, its successors and assigns. By direction of the NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD.

Is this a Joke? Yeah, No ####. USAPA was able to dupe the NMB into believing that they intended to be a real labor union. The Rest of us know the truth. The court system seems to understand what USAPA is as well. Two Judges say they've violated the law, the other two say it just hasn't happened yet. Hence the multi-year delay in getting a contract. Can't wait for ratification, then the fun begins again...with no way to slither out of obligations either. USAPA is as fake as it gets. Nobody believes otherwise.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The word on the street is that soon there will be a new level. Un-obtanium.

You will get a villa on Pandorum, you will learn to speak Navu, and after they lock you in a turbo-charged tanning bed you will be able the interact with the natives, ride flying dinosaurs, and have great adventures.

Geeze... I just might have to sign up myself....

METRO, Have you gone to the tanium level? Wear your badge backers proudly! MM( that one was worth another look!)

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Correcting east posters is getting to be a full time job. I did not say that the company will cover medical - they won't pay for it, However, retiring pilots qualify for 18 months of COBRA coverage and pilots with accumulated sick bank may use that sick bank to pay part of the cost of of COBRA. That will be less than the 18 months of COBRA (for pilot and spouse the 2010 cost of COBRA for pilot and spouse is $1145.90 and dental is $59.28).

Quoting LOA 93:

Allow post-retirees to use accrued sick bank pay starting at retirement to pay retiree medical costs

1. A pilot retiree may apply up to 25 sick hours per month, valued at $18.50 per hour ($432.50) to a pre-age 65 medical premium.

Jim

What is it about "pre-age 65" you don't understand? Once you turn 65 it's over, done, complete. The only option, if you wanted the tiny "lump sum" is to retire pre age-65. PERIOD.

Quote the NEXT paragraph of LOA 93. You won't because it shows you're WRONG!

What is the big difference between "applying to the premium" and "paying for?" It's all the same.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Is this a Joke? Yeah, No ####. USAPA was able to dupe the NMB into believing that they intended to be a real labor union. The Rest of us know the truth. The court system seems to understand what USAPA is as well. Two Judges say they've violated the law, the other two say it just hasn't happened yet. Hence the multi-year delay in getting a contract. Can't wait for ratification, then the fun begins again...with no way to slither out of obligations either. USAPA is as fake as it gets. Nobody believes otherwise.

AS long as you pay them REAL DOLLARS, we really don't care what were called!MM!Just DUPE them on over!

 

[BoeingBoy]

What is it about "pre-age 65" you don't understand.

Nothing, but Al Legheny, 767Intl, and you were talking about early retirement. So what part early retirement being by definition "pre-age 65" don't you understand.

the NEXT paragraph of LOA 93. You won't because it shows you're WRONG!

As for that next paragraph, it specifies the per/hour rate for sick bank if the pilot chooses to use sick bank to offset part of the cost of COBRA or take the cash payment. I've given those numbers twice already but if you think the numbers I gave are wrong, by all means feel free to quote it yourself.

So as I said, retirees can 1) use their sick bank for missed trips, 2) use it to offset the cost of COBRA, or 3) cash it in.

What is the big difference between "applying to the premium" and "paying for?" It's all the same.

I'm not sure what the context is since you've been all over the park trying to find a way to say you're right but assume it has to do with my saying the company doesn't cover - pay for - post retirement medical coverage. Again, for the umpteenth time, one option for a retiring pilot is to apply their sick bank toward the COBRA premium. If that's the case, the pilot "pays for" the COBRA premium with his/her earnings - those earnings happen to be both accumulated sick bank and cash.

BTW, now that you've admitted that sick bank can be cashed in at retirement, will you admit that you were wrong when you said:

Al was absolutely correct. If you wait and retire at 65, the sick leave in your bank is worth ZERO, NADA.

Admittedly $13.50/hour isn't a fortune ($20,250 for 1500 hours) but it sure isn't "ZERO, NADA" either.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Nothing, but Al Legheny, 767Intl, and you were talking about early retirement. So what part early retirement being by definition "pre-age 65" don't you understand.



As for that next paragraph, it specifies the per/hour rate for sick bank if the pilot chooses to use sick bank to offset part of the cost of COBRA or take the cash payment. I've given those numbers twice already but if you think the numbers I gave are wrong, by all means feel free to quote it yourself.

So as I said, retirees can 1) use their sick bank for missed trips, 2) use it to offset the cost of COBRA, or 3) cash it in.



I'm not sure what the context is since you've been all over the park trying to find a way to say you're right but assume it has to do with my saying the company doesn't cover - pay for - post retirement medical coverage. Again, for the umpteenth time, one option for a retiring pilot is to apply their sick bank toward the COBRA premium. If that's the case, the pilot "pays for" the COBRA premium with his/her earnings - those earnings happen to be both accumulated sick bank and cash.

BTW, now that you've admitted that sick bank can be cashed in at retirement, will you admit that you were wrong when you said:



Admittedly $13.50/hour isn't a fortune ($20,250 for 1500 hours) but it sure isn't "ZERO, NADA" either.

Jim

YOU'RE STILL WRONG. At 65, you get NOTHING. ZILCH. Don't believe me, call your rep. Oh, that's right, you don't have one. Note that there is NOTHING in the post-65 retirement section concerning ANY money. That's because it's NOT there. To qualify for ANY of it, you have to retire pre-65.

BY the way, I went back and read the posts. NONE of them says ANYTHING about early retirement. Only that if you retire with sick time, it's gone. So at "normal" retirement age (65) when you retire, It IS gone. They were EXACTLY RIGHT.

That's how it is, YOU'RE WRONG AGAIN.

Only then did the earlier posters start talking about staying active as pilots and using sick time, a totally different animal.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Read the section before that covering pre-65 retirement - the first section of post retirement medical. See the sick bank offset?

So let's see - I replied to posts about early retirement (by definition pre-age 65) by giving the sick bank options for early retirees. You said I was wrong. Who was wrong? You were, but you change the subject to normal retirement. I reply to that and you said I was wrong. Read the above reference. Who's wrong - you are again.

Of course, this is all subject to change with ObamaCare. Some analysts are saying that companies may drop health coverage and pay the fine since that may be the cheaper option. That would open a whole can of worms with so much tied to the current health coverage. Then there's the Medicare funding crisis looming. Medicare eligibility age could be raised or it could be means tested, either of which could affect retired pilots, even those retiring at 65. Anyone, including myself, could be wrong basing future possibilities on today's rules.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Read the section before that covering pre-65 retirement - the first section of post retirement medical. See the sick bank offset?

So let's see - I replied to posts about early retirement (by definition pre-age 65) by giving the sick bank options for early retirees. You said I was wrong. Who was wrong? You were, but you change the subject to normal retirement. I reply to that and you said I was wrong. Read the above reference. Who's wrong - you are again.

Jim

NO, you responded to HIS post by changing the subject to make him look wrong. He was and is correct. You changed the subject.

He did NOT ever say anything about Pre-65, YOU DID. He was talking about a NORMAL retirement, and YES, if you do that, at the NORMAL retirement age of 65, YOUR SICK BANK IS WORTH ZERO.

You quoted the OTHER possibility, EARLY retirement, which wasn't what he was talking about at all. And you framed it as though HE WAS WRONG, which he wasn't.

If you're gonna chime in with BAD advice, at least you can deal with the question at hand, and NOT change the subject to frame your argument as if the questioner is wrong.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong about one thing - post normal retirement an east pilot can't just cash in their sick bank and get a lump sum. But no matter how often you (or Al Legheny) say it, sick bank has potential value after normal retirement just as it does for pre-65 retirement. I even pointed you to the section of LOA 93 that says that and you still don't get it. I guess "You can lead a horse to water..." applies in some cases.

The question is whether you're man enough to admit that you're wrong. Never mind, that's a rhetorical question since I already know the answer.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong about one thing - post normal retirement an east pilot can't just cash in their sick bank and get a lump sum. But no matter how often you (or Al Legheny) say it, sick bank has potential value after normal retirement just as it does for pre-65 retirement. I even pointed you to the section of LOA 93 that says that and you still don't get it. I guess "You can lead a horse to water..." applies in some cases.

The question is whether you're man enough to admit that you're wrong. Never mind, that's a rhetorical question since I already know the answer.

Jim

I'd have to be wrong first, which which, in this case, I am not. Reread LOA 93. It's an "either, or" situation. If you retire Pre age-65, then you can use $18.50/sick hour in your bank toward medical coverage, or take cash $13.50/sick hour in your bank in lieu of that. OR, retire at 65 and get NOTHING from your sick bank. Those are the choices. There is NO OTHER way to read it. ALPA screwed us on THAT, too.

Since our active pilot medical coverage is included in our contract, no matter what happens with Obamacare the company cannot unilaterally drop it without MASSIVE lawsuits. Since post retirement medical benefits are no longer offered, except for COBRA and Medicare, nothing there would change, either, except if maybe the medicare age were raised or something like that. I actually think it's more likely that the medicare age will be lowered to provide the "universal" type healthcare the dems wanted originally, but that's only a possibility at this point.

 

[Al Legheny]

I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong about one thing - post normal retirement an east pilot can't just cash in their sick bank and get a lump sum. But no matter how often you (or Al Legheny) say it, sick bank has potential value after normal retirement just as it does for pre-65 retirement. I even pointed you to the section of LOA 93 that says that and you still don't get it. I guess "You can lead a horse to water..." applies in some cases.

The question is whether you're man enough to admit that you're wrong. Never mind, that's a rhetorical question since I already know the answer.

Jim

Yes, congress can change the law with Obama care as you call it. However Congress also created the Railway Labor Act in 1926 and this act governs rates of pay, working conditions, and benefits. Considering all the myriad types of collective bargaining agreements in currently in force thought the United States, it is highly unlikely that the law would mandate the immediate change of any collective bargaining agreements.

The parties would be free to negotiate medical benefits in light of the new law but that change would be the result of collective bargaining. The argument that the law would mandate changes without any negotiation is not "Ripe". Just like the 9th circuit found in another case ,the eventual outcome of"Obama Care" is not a foregone conclusion.

Sick Bank has "potential value" after age 65. That argument is also not ripe. It might or might or might not come to pass.
The Sick Bank has definite value prior to retirement. 1500 hours x 160.00 (wide body) = $240,000. 1500 hours x 125.00 (narrow body) = $187,500. That's real money not "potential value." Who would leave that on the table?

A bird in hand....

 

[luvthe9]

THE FINAL PUSH is upon us. And the west has brought this pot to a boil with the en banc. This time, the 9th is going to deliver a blistering and final deathblow to the west. It is time to end this thing, and it will end hard. A crushing blow for the west is soon to be rendered. Again, thank you for plowing the hard rocky legal soil with your hard earned dollars. Why did you do it? You should be asking Jacobs. A massive error, but it provides an end to this long struggle. You have asked the 9th to render a decision, and you are going to get one you don't like. The swirls of doubt that some clung to on this board are going to be absolutely and devastating clear when the clerks issue their decision. You, are going to be extremely sorry you even went there, again. Before the ripeness, before the harm. A lot of us are sick and tired of hearing an entitled group try to steal what we earned. We pay enough taxes, work hard enough, gave away more than was needed. Now you try to get an entitlement off our backs. This is the time to get a complete victory on this west atrocity they think they so richly deserve. Let us hope their pockets are soon empty on this fools mission. Who told them they deserve to climb the backs of another pilot group just because their parent corporation was on hard times? And theirs was not? And do they not deserve it also? Get off our backs now. We are hopefully going to push this thing back so hard it is over for good. Quit trying to take what you have not earned. You will be protected. You only get what you earn. Try and take something that another owns? Then prepare for the battle of your lives, and you have it right now. Start acting like real Americans, and stop pushing your socialist agenda. We are tired of you.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong about one thing - post normal retirement an east pilot can't just cash in their sick bank and get a lump sum. But no matter how often you (or Al Legheny) say it, sick bank has potential value after normal retirement just as it does for pre-65 retirement. I even pointed you to the section of LOA 93 that says that and you still don't get it. I guess "You can lead a horse to water..." applies in some cases.

The question is whether you're man enough to admit that you're wrong. Never mind, that's a rhetorical question since I already know the answer.

Jim
[/quot JIM, We don't have to correct ourselves , remember your here ,getting tired of correcting EAST POSTERS ?( what a burden) MM!

 

[767intl]

I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong about one thing - post normal retirement an east pilot can't just cash in their sick bank and get a lump sum. But no matter how often you (or Al Legheny) say it, sick bank has potential value after normal retirement just as it does for pre-65 retirement. I even pointed you to the section of LOA 93 that says that and you still don't get it. I guess "You can lead a horse to water..." applies in some cases.
The question is whether you're man enough to admit that you're wrong. Never mind, that's a rhetorical question since I already know the answer.
Jim

Jim you're still wrong about more than one thing. This debate started with Metroyet

Agreed. Anybody leaving anything on the table to the airline for free is a fool.

Al, me, Oldie or anyone never talked about early medical retirement. Only you did. ALL your arguments were based on now outdated LOA 93, page 28, "Post 1/1/05 Retiree, Pre-age 65 Retiree Medical." Forced retirement age age 60. That section died in December 2007. A quick read of the next paragraph, "Post 1/1/05, Post Age 65 Retiree Coverage," made that even clearer. "Eliminate medical coverage for all future retirees effective January 1, 2005." The other 4 points said ALL medical benefits ended at age 65 as well. You flat got confused, but your pride got the better of you and you've been on a tear ever since.

Correcting east posters is getting to be a full time job. I did not say that the company will cover medical - they won't pay for it, However, retiring pilots qualify for 18 months of COBRA coverage and pilots with accumulated sick bank may use that sick bank to pay part of the cost of of COBRA. That will be less than the 18 months of COBRA (for pilot and spouse the 2010 cost of COBRA for pilot and spouse is $1145.90 and dental is $59.28).

Quoting LOA 93:

Allow post-retirees to use accrued sick bank pay starting at retirement to pay retiree medical costs

1. A pilot retiree may apply up to 25 sick hours per month, valued at $18.50 per hour ($432.50) to a pre-age 65 medical premium.

Jim

Jim, that was for Pre-age 65 Retiree Medical benefits, when age 60 was still the retirement age. Not for those retiring due to medical conditions. What we were talking about was starting to draw sick bank at age 63.5, while still an active pilot. NOT taking either early of medical retirement. You are confused.

There's so much wrong in that post I don't really know where to start. So I'll just leave you with this - LOA 93 under Post-Retirement Medical. I await your admission that's you're wrong but don't expect it...
Jim

Jim, at age 65, there is NO Post-Retirement Medical. LOA 93 is clear. What part of that don't you understand? Under LOA 93 Sick bank not used by age 65 has zero value.

Not at all. This started when Al Legheny said accumulated sick bank was lost at retirement so east of pilots would begin depleting their accumulated sick bank starting next summer. I corrected that, only to be jumped on by 767intl as being wrong on all counts (some seem spring loaded to say that anything someone says must be wrong if that person doesn't agree with them on the Nic). So the post you quoted was explaining the contract as it pertains to sick bank to 767intl.

No, Jim, that's not how this all started. It started with comments about leaving sick leave on the books at age 65 retirement. We said if you leave it, you lose it. Under LOA 93 you can't even use accrued sick hours after retiring at age 65. (See Post 1/1/05, Post Age 65 Retiree Coverage) You went off on some tangent that's not applicable anymore.

Nothing, but Al Legheny, 767Intl, and you were talking about early retirement. So what part early retirement being by definition "pre-age 65" don't you understand.

As for that next paragraph, it specifies the per/hour rate for sick bank if the pilot chooses to use sick bank to offset part of the cost of COBRA or take the cash payment. I've given those numbers twice already but if you think the numbers I gave are wrong, by all means feel free to quote it yourself.

So as I said, retirees can 1) use their sick bank for missed trips, 2) use it to offset the cost of COBRA, or 3) cash it in.

Not any more, Jim. And no, we weren't talking about early retirement.

Admittedly $13.50/hour isn't a fortune ($20,250 for 1500 hours) but it sure isn't "ZERO, NADA" either.
Jim

Jim, the $18.50 and $13.50/hr are dead. They died when age 60 died.

YOU'RE STILL WRONG. At 65, you get NOTHING. ZILCH. Don't believe me, call your rep. Oh, that's right, you don't have one. Note that there is NOTHING in the post-65 retirement section concerning ANY money. That's because it's NOT there. To qualify for ANY of it, you have to retire pre-65.

BY the way, I went back and read the posts. NONE of them says ANYTHING about early retirement. Only that if you retire with sick time, it's gone. So at "normal" retirement age (65) when you retire, It IS gone. They were EXACTLY RIGHT.

That's how it is, YOU'RE WRONG AGAIN.

Only then did the earlier posters start talking about staying active as pilots and using sick time, a totally different animal.

Oldie, he's never going to get it. It's tough not to pile on, especially when you got someone who is so far off the mark, won't admit it and is embarrassing himself with each defense. But the only way to expose Jim's lack of credibility is to pile on. He thinks he's some kind of revered elder statesman, trying to calm the waters. His West buddies hang on his words, like the did on hp_fas, until his legal "expertise" fell apart. At least hp_fa had the smarts to take a powder for a while.

Jim, you end this all by just saying you were mistaken. No weasel words, just you got confused and made a mistake.