US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

I used to think you would be the last one to get it, but now I am leaning toward viewing you as a member of the group that willfully will never get it. Under ALPA, only 50% + 1 of the West pilots had to agree to the ALPA scheme, but now somehow after the NMB certified, and 9th verified real union (notwithstanding your ancient claims of "you won't even get 200 cards), the West now has to agree 100% (to a fake union proposal no less). :blink:

You are 100% correct. I am a member of the group that willfully will never get it.

it being any seniority integration scheme concocted by the fake union.

Under ALPA 50%+1 had to agree to a new CBA for it to pass, because that is what the sum process of the contracts called for. Under usapa, those contracts are broken and any pilot represented by those contracts can sue the fake union for breaking them.

Get it yet? Parker and Lakefield told you. Your merger committee told you. The West merger committee told you. Nicolau told you. Wake told you. Now Bybee has told you, and Graber and Tashima eluded to it.

Pass anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe" DFR.

 

[cleardirect]

Nic is not fair???!!! (Screams the Nic fan)

Fair is just a concept in the mind of the beholder....(You have no integrity, blah, blah, blah)

Sure, fair is in the mind of the beholder... and of course every milestone that has occurred since Nic has happened because a majority of beholders voted to accomplish what they thought was fair. A majority.. muh-jawr-i-tee

And there is no shortage of dissenters... well actually, by definition, there is a shortage.

Keep beating that majority rules drum.

The next merger will change your mind. Can you accept AA or DAL voting what they think is a fair integration list? If the majority thinks it is fair than it must be right.

Without a merger the next contract the west will hold the majority. At that time the majority will think that the Nicolau is still fair and put that back in place. Hope you east pilots that have more than 6-7 years left can live with the majority of west pilots deciding your fate. Thank all those old guys that will get these and leave you what is left.

 

[nic4us]

They will see not much of any W-2 raise, and certainly not the Nic.

Why is that? You mean the east would pass any contract that has no raise in pay and lifestyle, just to get DOH?

What happened to industy leading ( as promised by usapa) much less standard? I gueass it went the way of lets hurry and put out something that steals the West jobs as was our intent when we founded this fake union.

 

[Phoenix]

You are 100% correct.

Ok. That was easy.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You are 100% correct. I am a member of the group that willfully will never get it.

it being any seniority integration scheme concocted by the fake union.

Under ALPA 50%+1 had to agree to a new CBA for it to pass, because that is what the sum process of the contracts called for. Under usapa, those contracts are broken and any pilot represented by those contracts can sue the fake union for breaking them.

Get it yet? Parker and Lakefield told you. Your merger committee told you. The West merger committee told you. Nicolau told you. Wake told you. Now Bybee has told you, and Graber and Tashima eluded to it.

Pass anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe" DFR.

It's an emotional experience, watching a winning lottery ticket go up in flames.

The way I read it, there are 21 days from the filing date of the request for en banc appeal for a judge to agree and request a vote. If no judge requests one, it's over. If they do, then a majority of the sitting judges would have to vote for an en banc appeal for it to go to the en banc court. If they don't, the 3 judge panel's ruling stands. If they do vote for en banc, it would likely take YEARS to be heard, some have been on the docket SEVERAL years. I don't see the en banc thing as very likely at all, and even if it happens USAPA could still prevail. According to the instruction, en banc appeals are highly discouraged, and only permitted in certain instances. There is no "right" to an en banc appeal.

Any legitimate folks that understand this, chime in if I'm wrong. I'm just trying to understand the process.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Keep beating that majority rules drum.

The next merger will change your mind. Can you accept AA or DAL voting what they think is a fair integration list? If the majority thinks it is fair than it must be right.

Without a merger the next contract the west will hold the majority. At that time the majority will think that the Nicolau is still fair and put that back in place. Hope you east pilots that have more than 6-7 years left can live with the majority of west pilots deciding your fate. Thank all those old guys that will get these and leave you what is left.

You guys really do need better reading comprehension. In the ruling, the judges admit that majority rules, since the contract cannot be ratified without it.

I don't know where you pull that stuff you spew from, but I'll bet it's dark and stinky.

 

[Phoenix]

. If the majority thinks it is fair than it must be right..

By Jove! I think you've got it!

 

[Phoenix]

It's an emotional experience, watching a winning lottery ticket go up in flames.

The way I read it, there are 21 days from the filing date of the request for en banc appeal for a judge to agree and request a vote. If no judge requests one, it's over. If they do, then a majority of the sitting judges would have to vote for an en banc appeal for it to go to the en banc court. If they don't, the 3 judge panel's ruling stands. If they do vote for en banc, it would likely take YEARS to be heard, some have been on the docket SEVERAL years. I don't see the en banc thing as very likely at all, and even if it happens USAPA could still prevail. According to the instruction, en banc appeals are highly discouraged, and only permitted in certain instances.

Any legitimate folks that understand this, chime in if I'm wrong. I'm just trying to understand the process.

Judge Wake Acknowledges Addington Action Should Be Dismissed


IRON Compass:

"On Monday June 7, 2010, Judge Wake issued an order dismissing two pending motions that remained at the district court in the Addington litigation. In February, at the request of USAPA, Judge Wake stayed determination of both the plaintiffs’ motion for attorneys' fees and USAPA's motion to dismiss the damage claim pending a determination by the Ninth Circuit.

On Monday, Judge Wake, acknowledged that "the Court of Appeals ruled that this action should be dismissed," and he therefore dismissed plaintiffs' motion for attorneys' fees and USAPA's motion to dismiss plaintiffs' second amended complaint because both motions were rendered moot by the Ninth Circuit's decision to dismiss the entire case on ripeness grounds.

A copy of Judge Wake's Monday order can be found in the Legal Library on the website."

 

[cleardirect]

Let’s see what Mr. Billy Wilder had to say about usapa and what he thinks usapa could or could not do. This is from the blog that you all point to incessantly as the one person that got it. Obviously this was written before the election but the facts remain. The Nicolau award does not go away. The logic follows that if any award that usapa comes up with on their own for a merger would be incorrect it also be incorrect to use for the US Airways pilots stand alone. He was talking about going to an ALPA carrier but he also mentions A/M policy. Since a usapa generated list had not been created in one of those processes it will be found in DFR.

USAPA cannot do the one thing that must be done to safeguard the AAA pilots’ interests in the future—amend the Nicolau award. No matter what attempts USAPA might make in negotiations with US Airways if it actually displaced ALPA as the US Airways pilots’ representative (and there’s nothing to indicate USAPA representatives have either the experience or ability to conduct such negotiations), it cannot alter the Nicolau award. That can only be done under ALPA’s constitution and bylaws and merger policy.
Even if USAPA were able to negotiate a seniority list with US Airways based on date of hire, that list might have no effect in a subsequent merger transaction. An ALPA pilot group may not be obligated to recognize the USAPA seniority list in a subsequent seniority integration. The argument would be that the USAPA list was not compiled in accordance with either ALPA Merger Policy or the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs since it was not the product of a tripartite agreement or award. An ALPA pilot group could instead resurrect the unchanged Nicolau list and argue it is the only integrated seniority list for US Airways pilots compiled in accordance with the procedural requirements of the LPPs (a multi-party proceeding). And since ALPA Merger Policy would not apply in such an integration proceeding, the argument under ALPA Merger Policy that pilots of one group may not be reordered internally against their peers would also not apply. The question whether the Nicolau list is fair and equitable must be faced now, not later.

 

[luvthe9]

The majority can not decide what the minority thinks is fair. Even if some west pilots vote for a contract. all it takes one west pilot to decide that he was not represented fairly to file a DFR. Read some of the cases. It was not 1/3 of the members hurt. some cases were just a few.

OK Clear. Your side kept the East on a lower pay scale. That is measured, quantifiable damage. Documented. The Nic? Already declared a non factor by the 9th. Then you have to explain how you are holders of your right to jump the line without putting in your time. You look REAL bad. Tell the American public in these hard times how you DESERVE to jump years ahead of others. You are going nowhere real fast. The only damage is to your ridiculous expectations. They should be damaged, and they will! Then tell the rest of the airline which went DOH. That is going to bring even more pressure. Now you expect a huge pay raise, and claim the East will damage you by taking a 35/hr raise say. Which is 10 for you. Well, it was your plan all along. You made the bed. Now sleep in it.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Let’s see what Mr. Billy Wilder had to say about usapa and what he thinks usapa could or could not do. This is from the blog that you all point to incessantly as the one person that got it. Obviously this was written before the election but the facts remain. The Nicolau award does not go away. The logic follows that if any award that usapa comes up with on their own for a merger would be incorrect it also be incorrect to use for the US Airways pilots stand alone. He was talking about going to an ALPA carrier but he also mentions A/M policy. Since a usapa generated list had not been created in one of those processes it will be found in DFR.

It won't matter. Any award negotiated now has to use the new federal law for seniority. That blog, I believe was written BEFORE that law took effect.

All this does is cement the chances of ALPA ever getting back on this property at zero, unless they first agree to accept whatever we already have negotiated.

Plus, once it's in a contract and ratified, ALPA could be sued for another DFR. There are actually a lot of angles working against this one. You really think ALPA would want to get tangled up in this mess again? I think they wish it hadn't happened in the first place.

 

[luvthe9]

Let’s see what Mr. Billy Wilder had to say about usapa and what he thinks usapa could or could not do. This is from the blog that you all point to incessantly as the one person that got it. Obviously this was written before the election but the facts remain. The Nicolau award does not go away. The logic follows that if any award that usapa comes up with on their own for a merger would be incorrect it also be incorrect to use for the US Airways pilots stand alone. He was talking about going to an ALPA carrier but he also mentions A/M policy. Since a usapa generated list had not been created in one of those processes it will be found in DFR.

Nice job Clear. Getting an education. Wilder, very smart. I bet even He did not expect the 9th to plow even more legal ground. Which they did. Wait till you see what Wilder says about the 9th position and the Nic. It is LEGALLY dead now. The 9th did the right thing, beyond even what Wilder expected. And you paid!

 

[westcoastflyer]

Changing the topic here a bit, how about those Spirit pilots. Their current top-of-scale Captain's pay for the A319 is $138/hour, and for the A321 is $152/hour. That A321 rate is $27/hour MORE that the East pilots are earning flying the A321, and they are on strike for more! The Spirit pilots will most likely get a fairly sizable raise out of this in short order. This will show what solidarity against their company, instead of each other, can accomplish.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Changing the topic here a bit, how about those Spirit pilots. Their current top-of-scale Captain's pay for the A319 is $138/hour, and for the A321 is $152/hour. That A321 rate is $27/hour MORE that the East pilots are earning flying the A321, and they are on strike for more! The Spirit pilots will most likely get a fairly sizable raise out of this in short order. This will show what solidarity against their company, instead of each other, can accomplish.

I hope they get a lot. There's a lot more to a contract than hourly rates, but if that's what they make, good for them.

 

[cleardirect]

OK Clear. Your side kept the East on a lower pay scale. That is measured, quantifiable damage. Documented. The Nic? Already declared a non factor by the 9th. Then you have to explain how you are holders of your right to jump the line without putting in your time. You look REAL bad. Tell the American public in these hard times how you DESERVE to jump years ahead of others. You are going nowhere real fast. The only damage is to your ridiculous expectations. They should be damaged, and they will! Then tell the rest of the airline which went DOH. That is going to bring even more pressure. Now you expect a huge pay raise, and claim the East will damage you by taking a 35/hr raise say. Which is 10 for you. Well, it was your plan all along. You made the bed. Now sleep in it.

So we come back around to this same old whine. The west pilots did not keep you from anything. If you wanted pay parity you should have negotiated it in the T/A. But wait AAA was going to close the doors before the ink was dry so there was no time to do that.

Yes the west pilots did support pay parity. Remember the coast to coast picketing events? We supported you right up to the day your side walked out of negotiation never to return because you did not get what you wanted.

Beside what kind of leverage do you think the west pilots have? Even if after you walked out and we went to the company and demanded that Parker give you parity. Do you think that he would? Look at you now, usapa is in change they are negotiating with the company. If usapa says give us parity they speak for the whole group right. So by default the west supports pay parity for the east. How is that coming?

What did Parker tell you about pay parity? You get it as soon as you sign a contract. Where is that contract? Usapa is charge what are they doing? Did they close even a single section this time? I don’t know the NAC is silent.

So give up on trying to blame the west for your errors.

As far as the rest of your nonsense. The world has looked at this and they side with the west. You got to tell your story to the arbitrator, ALPA national, a jury of 9 Americans. They all disagreed with you.

As long as you keep the west from a contract usapa keeps you from a contract. I can wait longer.