US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

Just a quick question for all (East & West).

This is hypothetical of course

If roughly 1/3 of "West" USAirways pilots are objectors and do not get to vote on a joint contract, and say 1/3 vote yes on a joint contract (if/when one is put out for a vote), and lets say 1/4 "East" USAirways pilots vote no, the other 3/4 vote yes, how would USAPA be liable for DFR, when at least half of "West" MIG's voted for the joint contract? One would think that the objector's have to deal with what the group as a whole decides, along with the remaining "West" USAirways pilots, since roughly 2/3 either didn't care about their future's or voted in favor of a joint contract. How is that harming the group as a whole, and not just about 1/3 that voted yes?

This is not a hypothetical.

To answere your question, it simply does not matter how the demographics on the vote of any CBA stack up. It is how the history of that CBA came to being, not who voted what.

The history is, we have a contractually agreed upon method of seniority integration. We followed the provisions of those contracts and the end result was the Nic. The east malcontents then formed a fake union in an attempt to renege on those contracts. If they get a CBA passed that contains anything other than the Nic, they have at that point breached their obligations to those contracts and will be sued.

As a pilot formerly represented by ALPA coucil 62, I have a contract with "the company" and "the east pilots represented by ALPA" to integrate our seniority list via ALPA merger policy. That pollicy was followed and resulted in the Nic. Break that contract and you will get sued. It simply does not matter what the rest of the West pilots decide.

In the same way, as a pilot formerly represented by ALPA, I have a contract with the company that says I get 4 weeks of vacation a year. If the company violated that contract and said "sorry Nic4, you get no vacation this year" the rest of the West pilots could not just take a vote and say, "yeah, company is right, Nic4 gets no vacation this year, we voted that is the end of it". Of course the venue for me to seek restitution would not be federal court, but first through the grievance process, then the court system.

Bottom line, pass anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe" DFR, and I have 6 months to file from the date the Tenative Agreement is put out to a vote, ( "the time I know, or should have known, of the unions intention to breach"). So while you are taking your vote, I have time to get an injunction stopping implementation. The 9th just affirmed I will not lose the issue by missing the statute of limitations.

 

[Phoenix]

OK Clear. Your side kept the East on a lower pay scale. That is measured, quantifiable damage. Documented. The Nic? Already declared a non factor by the 9th. Then you have to explain how you are holders of your right to jump the line without putting in your time. You look REAL bad. Tell the American public in these hard times how you DESERVE to jump years ahead of others. You are going nowhere real fast. The only damage is to your ridiculous expectations. They should be damaged, and they will! Then tell the rest of the airline which went DOH. That is going to bring even more pressure. Now you expect a huge pay raise, and claim the East will damage you by taking a 35/hr raise say. Which is 10 for you. Well, it was your plan all along. You made the bed. Now sleep in it.

One more group they will have to whine to is the hundreds of pilots that already resigned and will never come back because of the Nic. Many of the more recent hires among the West have already permanently leaped 100s of pilots on the East. Their fear and screaming about an unfair portion of any furloughs is unfounded.

How many East have already been permanently axed because they refused to accept a recall with Nic looming?

Nic has caused more inequities across the whole seniority list of both sides than could have been caused intentionally.

 

[cleardirect]

It won't matter. Any award negotiated now has to use the new federal law for seniority. That blog, I believe was written BEFORE that law took effect.

All this does is cement the chances of ALPA ever getting back on this property at zero, unless they first agree to accept whatever we already have negotiated.

Plus, once it's in a contract and ratified, ALPA could be sued for another DFR. There are actually a lot of angles working against this one. You really think ALPA would want to get tangled up in this mess again? I think they wish it hadn't happened in the first place.

Read Wilder’s words a little closer. He mentions A/M. His point was that any list that usapa creates will be a DFR because it was not done using the established procedures of either ALPA or A/M . The west or the third part of the tripartite negotiations was not there to protect our rights.

As far as ALPA coming back, you guys would have no choice. What have you been saying? The majority rules. If we merge with DAL or UAL they are ALPA and they are the majority. Welcome back boys nothing that you can do about it.

Read what Wilder said. If we go back to ALPA because they are the majority they will demand the Nicolau as the list. It does not matter what usapa got from the company we go back to Nicolau.

Let me post Billy Wilder’s words one more time so you can let them sink in.

USAPA cannot do the one thing that must be done to safeguard the AAA pilots’ interests in the future—amend the Nicolau award.

 

[luvthe9]

This is not a hypothetical.

To answere your question, it simply does not matter how the demographics on the vote of any CBA stack up. It is how the history of that CBA came to being, not who voted what.

The history is, we have a contractually agreed upon method of seniority integration. We followed the provisions of those contracts and the end result was the Nic. The east malcontents then formed a fake union in an attempt to renege on those contracts. If they get a CBA passed that contains anything other than the Nic, they have at that point breached their obligations to those contracts and will be sued.

As a pilot formerly represented by ALPA coucil 62, I have a contract with "the company" and "the east pilots represented by ALPA" to integrate our seniority list via ALPA merger policy. That pollicy was followed and resulted in the Nic. Break that contract and you will get sued. It simply does not matter what the rest of the West pilots decide.

In the same way, as a pilot formerly represented by ALPA, I have a contract with the company that says I get 4 weeks of vacation a year. If the company violated that contract and said "sorry Nic4, you get no vacation this year" the rest of the West pilots could not just take a vote and say, "yeah, company is right, Nic4 gets no vacation this year, we voted that is the end of it". Of course the venue for me to seek restitution would not be federal court, but first through the grievance process, then the court system.

Bottom line, pass anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe" DFR, and I have 6 months to file from the date the Tenative Agreement is put out to a vote, ( "the time I know, or should have known, of the unions intention to breach"). So while you are taking your vote, I have time to get an injunction stopping implementation. The 9th just affirmed I will not lose the issue by missing the statute of limitations.

To carry the Nic is to carry forward the FORMER representative entity. What is it that you don't get about ALPA being the FORMER? We told you this would happen. You still persist in not educating yourselves. Be prepared to pay the price for your ignorance, again. Start by reading Baptiste and Wilder. Clear finally did. I cannot wait to pass the "other than the Nic" to drive it home.

 

[nic4us]

Changing the topic here a bit, how about those Spirit pilots. Their current top-of-scale Captain's pay for the A319 is $138/hour, and for the A321 is $152/hour. That A321 rate is $27/hour MORE that the East pilots are earning flying the A321, and they are on strike for more! The Spirit pilots will most likely get a fairly sizable raise out of this in short order. This will show what solidarity against their company, instead of each other, can accomplish.

Thats the Spirit!

 

[Phoenix]

Read Wilder’s words a little closer...

Maybe you should hire Wilder to force Wake to reissue the injunction.

 

[luvthe9]

Read Wilder’s words a little closer. He mentions A/M. His point was that any list that usapa creates will be a DFR because it was not done using the established procedures of either ALPA or A/M . The west or the third part of the tripartite negotiations was not there to protect our rights.

As far as ALPA coming back, you guys would have no choice. What have you been saying? The majority rules. If we merge with DAL or UAL they are ALPA and they are the majority. Welcome back boys nothing that you can do about it.

Read what Wilder said. If we go back to ALPA because they are the majority they will demand the Nicolau as the list. It does not matter what usapa got from the company we go back to Nicolau.

Let me post Billy Wilder’s words one more time so you can let them sink in.

Finally, you read it. But you don't get what really happened in the 9th. It went BEYOND what Wilder said. He had Wake dead to rights. Wait till he comes out with the blog AFTER he sees what the 9th did. You are going to see him recognize that they LEGALLY killed the Nic! He is not the judge, only the Blog writer. It went beyond what he thought, and we thank you for it!

 

[cleardirect]

To carry the Nic is to carry forward the FORMER representative entity. What is it that you don't get about ALPA being the FORMER? We told you this would happen. You still persist in not educating yourselves. Be prepared to pay the price for your ignorance, again. Start by reading Baptiste and Wilder. Clear finally did. I cannot wait to pass the "other than the Nic" to drive it home.

Well hurry up. Stop talking about it and pass the thing already. Is the NAC so inept that they can not even pass a piece of paper across the table.

I like Wilder's word so much I may make them my signature.

USAPA cannot do the one thing that must be done to safeguard the AAA pilots’ interests in the future—amend the Nicolau award.

 

[cleardirect]

Finally, you read it. But you don't get what really happened in the 9th. It went BEYOND what Wilder said. He had Wake dead to rights. Wait till he comes out with the blog AFTER he sees what the 9th did. You are going to see him recognize that they LEGALLY killed the Nic! He is not the judge, only the Blog writer. It went beyond what he thought, and we thank you for it!

The ninth did not "kill" the Nicolau. They found the case not ripe. They also said that if usapa tries the same thing again it will be unquestionably a ripe DFR.

usapa has one place they can go to not get sued by the east and the west. Nicolau unchanged.

If usapa convinces the company to change the Nicolau both are in court. An injunction is issued and the contract sits on a shelf. No pay raise no vacation.

If usapa changes the Nicolau a little bit. The east cries foul it is not DOH. If usapa passes a DOH list the west cries foul. Stand on the Nicolau and usapa is protected by as Wilder said the three party process. the process is defined as fair and usapa has a defense in court from both sides.

Change Nicolau a little bit and they are explaining to a jury why the west was not even in the room when a fake list was put together without a third party neutral.

Besides usapa still has to convince the company to give them anything but Nicolau. How has that worked out so far?

 

[luvthe9]

Well hurry up. Stop talking about it and pass the thing already. Is the NAC so inept that they can not even pass a piece of paper across the table.

I like Wilder's word so much I may make them my signature.

Oh yes, this was a real concern to those of us who did take the time to read the blog. A very worrisome issue indeed. And I always believed Wilder was on target throughout his entire blog, even with this. I would never have mentioned it.Honestly, why didn't you guys or your legal team not take the time to read it? It was certainly loaded front and back with some interesting ammo regarding the Nic, and I have to admit- it favored you. He understood the ripeness issue better than anyone I have seen on this web board. Wake was over and done with the minute he went into this entire matter. He never should have. Back to your take on the Nic being in stone, as Wilder aptly put it. The 9th changed that. And Wilder is an attorney, not a judge. So the 9th takes it all. Just like Wake overruled Wilder and his opinion, and it stuck. The 9th overrules Wilder and his blog. We shall wait and see what Wilder says in his next blog. I suspect he is going to say the 9th took USAPA to, and over the goal line. Far beyond even what he would have expected. Quote him all you wish. It certainly meets our standard.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Here's the link to the B&W blog that I read. I don't see ANY of the stuff that they quoted here.

http://bapwild.com/blog/?p=454

In fact, it pretty much follows the exact reasoning and logic as the 9th specified in their opinion.

I think that maybe he was quoting VAN WILDER'S blog.

 

[cleardirect]

Here's the link to the B&W blog that I read. I don't see ANY of the stuff that they quoted here.

http://bapwild.com/blog/?p=454

In fact, it pretty much follows the exact reasoning and logic as the 9th specified in their opinion.

Read his comment further down.

USAPA cannot do the one thing that must be done to safeguard the AAA pilots’ interests in the future—amend the Nicolau award.

How long are you guys going to wait before demanding usapa hand over that DOH list. 3-6-12 months? Start calling your reps today. Let's get this contract moving. Let's see just how good the NAC is.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Read his comment further down.



How long are you guys going to wait before demanding usapa hand over that DOH list. 3-6-12 months? Start calling your reps today. Let's get this contract moving. Let's see just how good the NAC is.

I think I figured out the context of that blog, if it really exists, since you didn't include the link. It was to convince the pilots NOT to vote for USAPA in the NMB election, so it predates the blog I put a link for. That means that he obviously changed his postion on those items you cite.

You know (well maybe you don't, since you don't seem to know much) that negotiation is at the government's pace now, since we have a government mediator. I expect that once the case is finally dismissed and the injuction lifted, which has not yet occurred, the list will follow shortly thereafter, or they'll just use the one they already submitted. Then, negotiation can continue in earnest.

Follow what's going on at Spirit. That could be us pretty soon.

 

[cleardirect]

I think I figured out the context of that blog, if it really exists, since you didn't include the link. It was to convince the pilots NOT to vote for USAPA in the NMB election, so it predates the blog I put a link for. That means that he obviously changed his postion on those items you cite.

You know (well maybe you don't, since you don't seem to know much) that negotiation is at the government's pace now, since we have a government mediator. I expect that once the case is finally dismissed and the injuction lifted, which has not yet occurred, the list will follow shortly thereafter, or they'll just use the one they already submitted. Then, negotiation can continue in earnest.

Follow what's going on at Spirit. That could be us pretty soon.

Pay attention to what I wrote.

Obviously this was written before the election but the facts remain. The Nicolau award does not go away.

Why was your lawyer set against you leaving ALPA? His opinion was that if you leave ALPA.

USAPA cannot do the one thing that must be done to safeguard the AAA pilots’ interests in the future—amend the Nicolau award.

Why would his opinion change now. No the ninth did not say the Nicolau is dead. So the fact remains. usapa can not get rid of the Nicolau award.

Glad to see you guys have figured out the the injunction is still in place. It will remain in place until the en banc decides. So what has changed in the last two years of usapa trying to get a contract? usapa is free to work on the other 29 sections. How many have the agreed to? 5-6 at this rate your guys might get a new contract after you retire.

Please use the list that was already submitted. It will make the DFR case so much easier. The ninth has already said that that would be an unquestionably ripe DFR case.

 

[BoeingBoy]

OK oh wise one....lets define it OK...it's called sitting in the G-V with David Bonderman
plotting on how and when TPG can screw labor....or anyone else for that matter out of
hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars....does that definition work for ya!!!!!!!!!!!

That definition of "being in bed with" works for me. Got any proof that anything like that actually happened? Or just more of your fanciful conjecture?

Jim