US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvthe9]

Congratulations to the spirit pilots for getting a contract.

The anti-labor forces of AOL and their attorneys continue to keep us from getting a contract and stripping the pilots of their rightful places to vote. This issue will continue to foment the rift between the East and West pilots for sometime to come.

Unity is non-existent here.

I just return to the forum occasionally to remind the East pilots here that to waste your breath with West pilots is great sport but otherwise simply reminds us that the ultimate weapon of strike is not availible to us. THEY ARE AGAINST US!!

They're angry and they HATE you!

So, Good luck and enjoy the ride!!

Back to lurking.

Very true. Better hope the LOA 84 pay issue is won. If not, both sides will never get a raise.

 

[luvthe9]

First, lets just wait and see how the company weighs in on the issue. But if they decide to collude with usapa, then..

Not trying to make a threat here, but the next "unquestionably ripe" trial will not be bifurcated.

We will take that in one lump sum, and if you want to appeal the next one, fine, put up the bond, and you will be free to do so.

You better have a real good grasp of what "damage" means when you try and go to court. If you have a good job, your same seat, and fences- I see no damage. If you say you were damaged because you expected to jump the line in years to a position you are "entitled to" you are going to have a rude wake up call. The only costs will be borne by you and yours. Again.

 

[cleardirect]

You better have a real good grasp of what "damage" means when you try and go to court. If you have a good job, your same seat, and fences- I see no damage. If you say you were damaged because you expected to jump the line in years to a position you are "entitled to" you are going to have a rude wake up call. The only costs will be borne by you and yours. Again.

Well that is the good thing about the court system. You do not get to determine what you think are damages for us.

It is not damages because we think that that we are entitled to "jump the line" We would be entitled to damages because a third party put us in that position and he did not consider leaving everyone in their relative position to be jumping anything. Just because it took 17 years at AAA to not be furloughed is what your career was worth.

Fences. that seems to be the key word for your next attempt at avoiding the Nicolau. Fences cost the company money because they can not move assets around like they want. How much more is usapa and the east willing to give the company to get what you could not during arbitration? What leverage does usapa have to get anything?

 

[Freighterguynow]

The observation that 3 out of 7 current ALPA DFR suits are from AAA speaks volumes.

That it really wasn't, after all, just about the Nic award.

 

[cleardirect]

Very true. Better hope the LOA 84 pay issue is won. If not, both sides will never get a raise.

A truly selfish statement. Kind of sums up the union attitude from the east. If you can’t get yours nobody gets anything.

So you are willing to make the guys that will retire, leave making bankruptcy wages just so you can get what you could not get during negotiations/mediation or arbitration. So what you want is to wait for the old guys to leave so you can take their money and their positions while they get nothing from this deal.


I suggest that anyone hoping for the LOA 93 snap back read the transcript and the final briefs from both the company and usapa. Compare the work product and the evidence between the two filings. This case is so clear cut there is no question. Usapa wasted a ton of money on a wild goose chase. There is no way the arbitrator is going to give you guys snap back.

Better start to decide whether you guys want a contract with improvements and the Nicolau or retirement under your current conditions. That would be all US Airways pilots not just the junior guys that post here.

 

[luvthe9]

A truly selfish statement. Kind of sums up the union attitude from the east. If you can’t get yours nobody gets anything.

So you are willing to make the guys that will retire, leave making bankruptcy wages just so you can get what you could not get during negotiations/mediation or arbitration. So what you want is to wait for the old guys to leave so you can take their money and their positions while they get nothing from this deal.


I suggest that anyone hoping for the LOA 93 snap back read the transcript and the final briefs from both the company and usapa. Compare the work product and the evidence between the two filings. This case is so clear cut there is no question. Usapa wasted a ton of money on a wild goose chase. There is no way the arbitrator is going to give you guys snap back.

Better start to decide whether you guys want a contract with improvements and the Nicolau or retirement under your current conditions. That would be all US Airways pilots not just the junior guys that post here.

Not selfish at all. Reality. Reality of the West going across a picket line. The reality of the West continuing to insist on what every other employee group did not get. We know exactly where we stand. There is no way the East pilot group would attempt a strike. Nic4us gave us the reality- a whole lot of you will cross.

 

[Hate2fly]

A truly selfish statement. Kind of sums up the union attitude from the east. If you can’t get yours nobody gets anything.

So you are willing to make the guys that will retire, leave making bankruptcy wages just so you can get what you could not get during negotiations/mediation or arbitration. So what you want is to wait for the old guys to leave so you can take their money and their positions while they get nothing from this deal.


I suggest that anyone hoping for the LOA 93 snap back read the transcript and the final briefs from both the company and usapa. Compare the work product and the evidence between the two filings. This case is so clear cut there is no question. Usapa wasted a ton of money on a wild goose chase. There is no way the arbitrator is going to give you guys snap back.

Better start to decide whether you guys want a contract with improvements and the Nicolau or retirement under your current conditions. That would be all US Airways pilots not just the junior guys that post here.

Clear,

You still don't get it! We in the east are all old! Average age in the east is 58 years old about to go to 59. Everyone back here is going to move up the list rapidly! You mention LOA93 as a snap back. Again you show your lack of knowledge! The underlying document to LOA93 is LOA84 and remains in full force and effect. All of us back here in the east are really impressed by your clear and direct understanding of all the issues. Your boy the desert judge got spanked by the 9th and your co-founder buddies are scrambling to keep the donations flowing! Your boys aqua and fergie cost you guys alot of money. USAPA is flush with cash! Everything is paid off and we have millions in the bank.

The best thing about getting older is you have plenty of patience! You young boys and girls out west had a premature adjudication! The desert judge took you as far as he could........how about his water boarding buddy judge from Vegas. A couple of Bush's crack legal experts!

Keep the donations coming.

Hate

 

[luvthe9]

We didn't waste anything on the LOA 93 grievance. You are just worried about the fact that if we win it, you truly are up the creek. The west did nothing for the East parity. The way I see it, we are going forward without the West. It was your choice. You insist on the unattainable, so pay the price.

 

[cleardirect]

Not selfish at all. Reality. Reality of the West going across a picket line. The reality of the West continuing to insist on what every other employee group did not get. We know exactly where we stand. There is no way the East pilot group would attempt a strike. Nic4us gave us the reality- a whole lot of you will cross.

Please try and stick with one theory at a time within the same post.

What is it? Will there be a strike and the west will cross or will the east never attempt a strike? No strike, no picket line, nothing to cross.

First the chances of usapa ever getting released are very slim.

Second if usapa did get released what do you think the strike vote would be? 98%, 70%, 60%. If you don’t have a 98-99% strike vote the union should never take one. It shows the company weakness and you lose all leverage at the table.

So what will usapa do? Will they try Chaos? You guys go ahead and disrupt your operation because you are trying to avoid your obligation to arbitration. Enjoy.


Did you try the every other group argument with the arbitrator? How did that work out? How has that worked out with other pilot integrations? Not to well.

 

[luvthe9]

Well that is the good thing about the court system. You do not get to determine what you think are damages for us.

It is not damages because we think that that we are entitled to "jump the line" We would be entitled to damages because a third party put us in that position and he did not consider leaving everyone in their relative position to be jumping anything. Just because it took 17 years at AAA to not be furloughed is what your career was worth.

Fences. that seems to be the key word for your next attempt at avoiding the Nicolau. Fences cost the company money because they can not move assets around like they want. How much more is usapa and the east willing to give the company to get what you could not during arbitration? What leverage does usapa have to get anything?

This is not going to be an "attempt" to avoid the Nicolau. The Nicolau is dead and gone everywhere but in your world. We got the green light from the 9th. Seham has a plan. There is going to be no harm to the west, unless it is the imaginary harm you dream of.

 

[nic4us]

Not selfish at all. Reality. Reality of the West going across a picket line. The reality of the West continuing to insist on what every other employee group did not get. We know exactly where we stand. There is no way the East pilot group would attempt a strike. Nic4us gave us the reality- a whole lot of you will cross.

Yes the reality is a very sizable minority of West pilots would cross a usapa picket. It has been suggested before that usapa would use a CHAOS strike. If that were the case, an even larger amount of West pilots would ignore any usapa suggestion that any flight number below 700 be struck.

This whole arguement about the other employee groups is irrelevant and not true. Every employee group at LCC was combined by their unions merger policy or through arbitration. The West insist on what every other group at LCC did get, we used the merger policy and we have the arbitrators results.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear,

You still don't get it! We in the east are all old! Average age in the east is 58 years old about to go to 59. Everyone back here is going to move up the list rapidly! You mention LOA93 as a snap back. Again you show your lack of knowledge! The underlying document to LOA93 is LOA84 and remains in full force and effect. All of us back here in the east are really impressed by your clear and direct understanding of all the issues. Your boy the desert judge got spanked by the 9th and your co-founder buddies are scrambling to keep the donations flowing! Your boys aqua and fergie cost you guys alot of money. USAPA is flush with cash! Everything is paid off and we have millions in the bank.

The best thing about getting older is you have plenty of patience! You young boys and girls out west had a premature adjudication! The desert judge took you as far as he could........how about his water boarding buddy judge from Vegas. A couple of Bush's crack legal experts!

Keep the donations coming.

Hate

Wrong again. Average DOB on the east 5/12/1956

Average DOB west 6/27/1961

That makes the east average 54 and the west average 49. A 5 years difference is not a lot. Or do you still consider 49 year olds to be young?

Call it snap back, pay restoration whatever you want to call it. Read the filings you are not getting any of it.


You guys really don’t get it do you. Judge Wake was not “spanked” by the ninth. 2 of the 3 disagreed on a technicality. That technicality was ripeness nothing else. It still remains a question about when statute of limitations starts and when ripeness over lap in a DFR case. You guys really need to leave emotion out of your arguments.

 

[cleardirect]

We didn't waste anything on the LOA 93 grievance. You are just worried about the fact that if we win it, you truly are up the creek. The west did nothing for the East parity. The way I see it, we are going forward without the West. It was your choice. You insist on the unattainable, so pay the price.

Gaining a benefit for the east while leaving the west. Clear DFR material right there.

When you lose the LOA 93 arbitration. What will it have cost the dues paying members of usapa? Would it be $30,000, $40,000, $50,000? What benefit would the west pilot gain from a win on the LOA 93 arbitration. So yes it is a waste.

The unattainable is DOH. You were not able to get it through N/M/A. You were not able to get it through intimidation of ALPA national. You will not be able to get it through negotiations with the company.

The price being paid is by all us air pilots at these low wages. Two weeks with the NMB in mediated talks and all usapa is able to get is 100% pay no credit for DH. We got 100% pay and credit for DH. Thanks for the reduction in benefits usapa. Can we count on this kind of stellar performance for the rest of the contract?

 

[nic4us]

This is not going to be an "attempt" to avoid the Nicolau. The Nicolau is dead and gone everywhere but in your world. We got the green light from the 9th. Seham has a plan. There is going to be no harm to the west, unless it is the imaginary harm you dream of.

"Seeham has a plan". How did that work out for you last time?

As I said before, lets wait and see what the company says. Is the Nic still sitting on Parker's desk. Does the company intend to hold fast and use it, as they are contractually obligated to do.

usapa had the opportunity to challenge the Nic, but did not. Staute of limitations on that was expired long ago. No matter because that would have been a loser for the east anyway.

You most certainly did get a "green light" from the 9th.

You are free to come up with whatever seniority integration scheme you feel appropriate. Then the West is free to sue with the pain of an "unquestionably ripe DFR", for your failing to use the arbitrated list, and imposing a unilaterally concocted methed that favors east pilots at the direct harm to West pilots. Any re-arranging of the sequence of the names on that list and you are done.

The big whole in Seeham's plan was not that the union has the right to negotiate seniority. What usapa wants to do is re-negotiate seniority to the detriment of the West pilot class.

 

[oscarjazz]

The AFA integrated DOH because it is mandated by their Constitution and By-Laws, and there are hundreds if not thousands of labor organizations that do the same across the country. It won't be a comparison to an arbitrated list, it will be a comparison to the incredible body of seniority integrations that have take place. I.E. wide range of reasonableness. Your flight attendants had no say in the integration, it was simply a part of being a member. That constitutional mandate has never been successfully challenged because of the merits of longevity and the broad definition of 'good faith." I am sure many of your flight attendants felt disadvantaged. The idea of fair is subjective and their will be a wide range of views on what constitutes fair, however a strong standard exists amongst organized labor and its been legally upheld, time and again.

If you sue again, which is your right, the case will resolve around all the competing claims, the unions desire to balance those and DOH, especially with significant protective conditions to ameliorate the impact of the integration and whether that will fall within that wide range. You bring up arbitration because the largest pilot union has always taken the easy way out but even then, they have continually tinkered with it, vacillating on the makeup and at the whim of their larger members. A near plurality of other unions do not do so but their behavior has been found to be within the "good faith", standard.

The day the merger was announced, your flight attendants knew how it was going down before the first meeting. Good faith only requires consideration of all issues and a good faith effort to try and balance everyone's interest. Longevity has always met that standard when it has been challenged and coupled with protection through fencing, and as I understand it, one-way fencing seeks to balance the vested seniority of members and accommodating a disparagement in average longevity. Two people in the room has nothing to do with it. When they negotiate your contract, the committee that handles that doesn't requires a member from every position or seniority range in order to arrive at an acceptable solution for the collective group. It is simply evaluated as a whole on its own merits.

Here is the difference. Both flight attendant groups willfully signed on to the tenets of AFA before the merger was announced. Each group could have vetoed the arrangement by decertifying the union. Allegheney-Mohawk, McCaskill-Bond, and every other legal case recognizes that in a seniority merger, there are two sides with mutually exclusive interests. The law provides a way to resolve those disparate interests through a variety of methods. The AFA chooses DOH, that is their choice. ALPA chooses the Allegheney-Mohawk procedures, negotiation-mediation-arbitration. That is their choice. That is the choice that both AWA and AAA chose to use when they joined ALPA.

Your argument is that after the fact, the majoirty group can force a new union with new rules on seniority integration and have that apply under "wide range of reasonableness". That argument is so ridiculous that I can't believe you even present it. If your arugment holds true, then all labor law, all legal cases, all federal law on seniority integration can be summed up with "whatever the majority wants". Doesn't that sound just a little silly to you.

BEFORE the merger, both sides agreed to be in ALPA. Furthermore, both sides agreed in the transition agreement to use the ALPA merger procedures to solve their seniority issues. You can't change the rules ex-post-facto, simply by a majority vote. The Nicolau list is the integrated seniority list at LCC because that is what their contract called for. USAPA is free to change the list but the changes must pass the tests of DFR including non-discrmination. USAPA does not get to start from scratch and invent a new integration procedure. That is insane and totally eliminates the rights of one group in the seniority dispute. You rely on a select few quotes from select cases, all of them out of context, and claim to have made a legal case. Why don't you quote the section of the transition agreement that deals with the seniority issue?

USAPA lost the DFR case. The case was dismissed over ripeness. If USAPA presents the DOH list and it makes through to a signed contract, then they will lose the DFR case again. No facts have changed. The Ninth ruled on one issue, ripeness, the rest of the discussion was a back and forth between the majority and minority opinion and have no weight on the underlying DFR case. No matter how you try to stretch the words used, you cannot stretch the clear facts. LCC has an integrated seniority list and changing a seniority list is really hard. Otherwise, it would be done all the time.