US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[supercruiser]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iglNcRUwvDlJfDT51gGN8SkmxOPQD9GCLS2G1 Congratulations to the Spirit Airlines pilots, they won over Bill Franke and will resume service Friday, It's easy when you get 100% particiation, we could never do that here because the west would scab in a minute!!!!

Dont forget the spineless "let my daddy vote" group too, that would literally accept anything.

 

[nic4us]

Replacing a union is not as easy as BB alludes. There were many negative events which aligned so many pilots which many people choose ignore. Greed is an easy justification for the ousting of ALPA because it fits. What doesn't fit is that a large percentage of the top 500 east voted against ALPA. If the top 500 voted in self interest, ALPA would still be our CBA. After all, they had nothing to loose except money and work rules. Choosing to work under LOA 93 should at least make one pause...

You are confusing the difficulty usapa had to overcome to get elected with how future disputes will unfold.

In the future replacing a union will be both easy and common place if the courts uphold that a majority can simply vote its way out of binding arbitration. Not only that, but forming unions in otherwise non-union ventures will start to occur anytime a merger of work groups happens and one side holds a significant majority. Further, in our industry, the new majority rules will render the McCaskill-Bond bill moot.

Also, arbitration will no longer be a viable means of dispute resolution, if there is any chance that one side could just ignore it, or have any legal avenue to drive away from it. The party that does not have that option will not enter into it.

In your example, I would agree that choosing to work under LOA 93 makes one stop and think. However, usapa not only promised no Nic, they promised a new industry leading contract in short order, and barring a new contract, there would be snap backs 12-31-09, and seperate ops in the interim.

Now ask yourself, what were the results of the representational election. I forget the exact numbers, something like 2600 for usapa, and 2400 for ALPA, which means around 600 east pilots did not vote for usapa. What makes you so sure most of the top 500 voted for usapa? ALPA got 600 east votes from somewhere.

 

[luvn737s]

I've asked a number of times-- could someone please explain to me why anyone out west would take sides much less pray that the east lose a case that the west has nothing to do with. Ex. MDA LOA 93.

I would recommend that you call up Cleary and ask him why the east was allowed to unilaterally change a provision in the west contract that did not apply to them at all (Age 58 bypass).

While the west might root for USAPA failure just to see a shred of justice, the east actively removed a useful provision which had potential negotiating leverage just out of pure spite.

 

[luvn737s]

It's easy when you get 100% particiation, we could never do that here because the west would scab in a minute!!!!

That's a scathing indictment of USAPA. You can't really mean that USAPA is incapable of building the unity necessary to make itself relevant, can you?

 

[traderjake]

It's easy when you get 100% particiation, we could never do that here because the west would scab in a minute!!!!

You've spent the last two years trying to steal their jobs and now you expect them to go on strike to help you do it?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

ALPA obviously thought they were free enough to abandon it. That's what they tried at Wye River. It's hard to tell if the East MEC would have gone along with the great Wye River compromise, but the East's 3 delegates there were ready to accept ALPA's proposal. The West wouldn't have anything to do with it. Those tough guys said no. Now they're going to pay for it for the rest of their careers. The Wye River Compromise (followed by the ALPA/Kirby cramdown) would have gone more LOS than DOH or NIC. With LOS, not a single West pilot would be on furlough now. But they turned it down, even after their own merger attorney Freund told them they better get something on the River or risk getting screwed. But those West "Men Of Genius" said no. Freund was either asked to leave or left in frustration after only 2 days at the conference.

Now ALPA's long gone. They thought Wye River would keep them from being voted off the island and get a new contract. They failed at both. Those are facts. No union politics here.

Now some opinion mixed in fact. According to the West point of view (Westies, please correct me if I'm overstating), anything less than the NIC is DFR material. Any modification, no matter how slight, amounted to an abandonment of the entire award and slam-dunk DFR. ALPA didn't see it that way. USAPA doesn't either. They both viewed the NIC (paraphrasing West's own merger attorney) as merely a negotiating tool/proposal. That's what Freund said in his reply to East MEC's lawsuit against the West. You obviously haven't seen those quotes from what Freund told the court. Obviously the D.C. district Court agreed with Freund. They threw out the suit. But for Freund, those words came back to haunt him. Well, they would have come back to haunt him if the Desert Judge had allowed USAPA to present their entire case. Maybe in the next trial, if there ever is another one.

West loves to say East welched on the deal, East has no integrity, etc. Problem is, ALPA is gone. USAPA wasn't around when all this went down. So it's all angry rhetoric. USAPA has no legal or moral obligation to give the NIC the time of day. The Ninth disagreed. West can continue to throw all the nasty words, phrases at us they want. With the Ninth's ruling, we don't much care. If we get too far out of line with our final contract (like staple), then I'm sure we will have a potential DFR loss ahead of us. But just dumping the NIC, at least in the eyes of the Ninth, does not meet DFR threshold.

Jetz, I really don't get your interest in any of this, other than you are either an ALPA plant or you really don't get it or you just like attracting attention. We already have enough of our own Easties doing all three, anything to disrupt and get back on ALPA FPL. We've outlined, quoted what the Ninth wrote, ad nauseum. Is what the Ninth said so hard to understand?

TRADER, A QUICK REFRESHER, PS you WEST GUYS AREN'T VERY GOOD AS DOUBLE AGENTS! MM!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I would recommend that you call up Cleary and ask him why the east was allowed to unilaterally change a provision in the west contract that did not apply to them at all (Age 58 bypass).

While the west might root for USAPA failure just to see a shred of justice, the east actively removed a useful provision which had potential negotiating leverage just out of pure spite.

The company would have grieved it and won anyway. When the age 60 rule changed, anything BASED on the age 60 rule did, too. Complain all you want. That's the reality.

 

[BoeingBoy]

When the age 60 rule changed, anything BASED on the age 60 rule did, too.

Got anything to back that up? I haven't read where everything in the East contract dealing with age 60 changed when the rule changed...

Jim

 

[Freighterguynow]

While the west might root for USAPA failure just to see a shred of justice, the east actively removed a useful provision which had potential negotiating leverage just out of pure spite.

They changed it because several West pilots asked them to.

Since the vast majority of the West was boycotting USAPA there was no oposition. Not that I blame you for the boycot, just don't spew lies later.

 

[LSS]

Now ask yourself, what were the results of the representational election. I forget the exact numbers, something like 2600 for usapa, and 2400 for ALPA, which means around 600 east pilots did not vote for usapa. What makes you so sure most of the top 500 voted for usapa? ALPA got 600 east votes from somewhere.

Breakdown:
Total Eligible : 5238
Total Votes : 4977 (95%)
USAPA Votes : 2723
% of Total Votes : 54.7%
% of Total : 51.9%
ALPA Votes : 2254
% of Total Votes : 45.3%
% of Total : 48.1%

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Got anything to back that up? I haven't read where everything in the East contract dealing with age 60 changed when the rule changed...

Jim

Then go read THE LAW. It's why, suddenly, everyone could wotk to 65, even though age 60 is in the contract.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Then go read THE LAW. It's why, suddenly, everyone could wotk to 65, even though age 60 is in the contract.

I don't question that the law trumps the contract in regard to retirement age, but you said "anything BASED on the age 60 rule did, too." The East contract has multiple mentions of age 60, particularly in the disability language. Did USAPA give all that up too?

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Then go read THE LAW. It's why, suddenly, everyone could wotk to 65, even though age 60 is in the contract.

The law now says that two over 60 pilots can't fly international together. Have all of the over 60 F/O's been stopped from bidding international flying? Did anything in the east contract change yet automatically?

 

[luvthe9]

The law now says that two over 60 pilots can't fly international together. Have all of the over 60 F/O's been stopped from bidding international flying? Did anything in the east contract change yet automatically?

There absolutely can be two pilots over 60 on an international trip. You are mistaken.

 

[nic4us]

Breakdown:
Total Eligible : 5238
Total Votes : 4977 (95%)
USAPA Votes : 2723
% of Total Votes : 54.7%
% of Total : 51.9%
ALPA Votes : 2254
% of Total Votes : 45.3%
% of Total : 48.1%

Thanks LSS. As I said I was not sure of the exact numbers. The results you posted show that ALPA recieved 370 east votes at an absolute minimum. That is, if all eligible West pilots voted, and they all voted ALPA. However, if you make the assumption that 1/3rd of the non-cast eligible votes were from the West, ALPA recieved 456 east votes. If you go further and assume some West pilots voted for usapa (i.e. furloughed east, recalled West) we get close to 500 east votes for ALPA.