US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[oldiebutgoody]

Shuttle? Merge by pay? The "gold standard" must have been in the shop being polished for that merger.

Jim

I guess you'd have to ask ALPA about that. See what kind of weird crap you can come up with when you don't have a real merger policy?

I think that we could get Prater behind a policy of "larger waistelines first". Maybe that will be the next method.

 

[luvthe9]

Shuttle? Merge by pay? The "gold standard" must have been in the shop being polished for that merger.

Jim

The same merger chair, and I won't comment further, ABANDONED DOH on page 3 of the award. Why? You tell me. First, he picked Nic. Which was a mistake. Then he picked him again. That is a big reason ALPA got destroyed. Our MEC put this guy in. First merge ever in USAIR history, and this clown goes off DOH. Why? I have no idea. Our MEC probably cut some deal with the ALPA brothers, onward and upward. Deliver, and we shall take care of you. We took GOOD care of ALPA.

 

[luvthe9]

And the Eastern guys who resigned and started over got the hose job.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The same merger chair, and I won't comment further, ABANDONED DOH on page 3 of the award. Why? You tell me. First, he picked Nic. Which was a mistake. Then he picked him again. That is a big reason ALPA got destroyed. Our MEC put this guy in. First merge ever in USAIR history, and this clown goes off DOH. Why? I have no idea. Our MEC probably cut some deal with the ALPA brothers, onward and upward. Deliver, and we shall take care of you. We took GOOD care of ALPA.

I also think a big factor was that the shuttle only had a couple of hundred pilots, so it really didn't effect people's careers. Plus, things weren't as grim in those days. Pilot's had retirement plans and other benefits, and a lot weren't even planning to work to age 60. I remember I was surprised by how it came out. It just didn't seem like that big a deal. Plus, the shuttle guys seemed equally pissed not to get their Eastern DOH. Since everybody was a little ticked, it looked fair.

Can't say that about the NIC. One side crying in their coffee, the other side waiving their lottery tickets and hootin' and howlin'.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

And the Eastern guys who resigned and started over got the hose job.

Yea, pretty sad. The ones that wound up on the street after the EA strike and got jobs at U wound up WAAAY junior to the guys of the same seniority at the shuttle. Way to take care of the soldiers, ALPA.

Actually, except for that one issue, I DO think that the Shuttle merger came out fair, but it was an accident that it did. It wasn't because of anything ALPA did.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Can anyone say"MCASKILL-BOND" , US GOVT STANDARD, DITTO ALPA SUX! MM!

 

[luvthe9]

And we never got to vote on our merger chair. Nor our MEC head. And forget having any input in our merger policy. Then our MEC chair, who said to vote for LOA 93 goes on to an ALPA job for 350 k a year. That really sat well. After the Shuttle merge, I made it a point to go to the meetings also. Heard Kirch say Nicolau told them they couldn't go DOH. Of course it wasn't in the transcripts. All off the record. Very convenient. And the AWA merge comes along, and the same guy Kirch picks Nicolau, after being told DOH was not an argument in the Shuttle and argues DOH under protest.You tell me why he picked Nic again? Probably another ALPA behind the scenes deal. Another nail in the ALPA coffin. Nobody got to vote for any of these stars.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You know what else is a hoot? Unions have ALWAYS used experience in a job as part of one's marketability and "worth" Our payscales are graduated from 1-12 years to ensure that as experience is acquired, the company pays for it. Other unions use job titles, like apprentice, journeyman, etc. and require higher pay for more experience. ALPA was attempting to set the trade union system back a thousand years by saying that experience, indicated by DOH, is no longer indicative of one's marketability.

I'm really surprised that other unions or the AFL_CIO didn't have some issue with this. Or, maybe they did. Maybe that's part of why ALPA added DOH back into the formula.

 

[BoeingBoy]

ABANDONED DOH on page 3 of the award.

I think you mean the award, on page 3, says the US MC gave up on DOH - hard to abandon a position after the award is out. Otherwise, I notice "our MEC" in there several times. As I said earlier, an apathetic pilot group that let the MEC do whatever they wanted. Oddly enough, abandoning DOH was what the US pilots wanted in the Shuttle merger - better for the US pilots since it would have been difficult to escape recognizing the Shuttle guys EA DOH.

It's amazing that the US MEC supported the change in merger policy in the early 90's...well, not so amazing since US had a large number of relatively new people at that time. When the stagnation resulted in having the group with the greatest average longevity, meaning DOH would be advantageous for pre-merger US pilots in any merger, the attitude changed - how dare ALPA not have DOH as the standard. Just like that list of mergers you gave - the original US pilots profited by DOH in every post deregulation merger up to the Shuttle. DOH wasn't so attractive in that merger since the EA guys could trace their DOH back to EA, so pay rate became the "gold standard" there. Now, DOH favors the East so has again become the "gold standard".

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I think you mean the award, on page 3, says the US MC gave up on DOH - hard to abandon a position after the award is out. Otherwise, I notice "our MEC" in there several times. As I said earlier, an apathetic pilot group that let the MEC do whatever they wanted. Oddly enough, abandoning DOH was what the US pilots wanted in the Shuttle merger - better for the US pilots since it would have been difficult to escape recognizing the Shuttle guys EA DOH.

It's amazing that the US MEC supported the change in merger policy in the early 90's...well, not so amazing since US had a large number of relatively new people at that time. When the stagnation resulted in having the group with the greatest average longevity, meaning DOH would be advantageous for pre-merger US pilots in any merger, the attitude changed - how dare ALPA not have DOH as the standard. Just like that list of mergers you gave - the original US pilots profited by DOH in every post deregulation merger up to the Shuttle. DOH wasn't so attractive in that merger since the EA guys could trace their DOH back to EA, so pay rate became the "gold standard" there. Now, DOH favors the East so has again become the "gold standard".

Jim

The AAA MEC was adept at scaring the pilot group into doing whatever they wanted. They were assisted greatly by ALPA national. They were rewarded for supporting ALPA by being given lucrative positions with great salary and benefits in Herndon.

The entire EA DOH issue for the Shuttle merger was because of the folks that were hired after losing jobs when EA went under. It didn't seem right, and still doesn't, that the ones who basically gave everything for ALPA were the ones getting the screw job. I remember THAT as being the big issue with EA DOH. The reality is, most of the guys that came from the Shuttle with an EA DOH were very close to retirement. They really wouldn't have made much of an impact on anyone's career here.

 

[luvthe9]

I think you mean the award, on page 3, says the US MC gave up on DOH - hard to abandon a position after the award is out. Otherwise, I notice "our MEC" in there several times. As I said earlier, an apathetic pilot group that let the MEC do whatever they wanted. Oddly enough, abandoning DOH was what the US pilots wanted in the Shuttle merger - better for the US pilots since it would have been difficult to escape recognizing the Shuttle guys EA DOH.

It's amazing that the US MEC supported the change in merger policy in the early 90's...well, not so amazing since US had a large number of relatively new people at that time. When the stagnation resulted in having the group with the greatest average longevity, meaning DOH would be advantageous for pre-merger US pilots in any merger, the attitude changed - how dare ALPA not have DOH as the standard. Just like that list of mergers you gave - the original US pilots profited by DOH in every post deregulation merger up to the Shuttle. DOH wasn't so attractive in that merger since the EA guys could trace their DOH back to EA, so pay rate became the "gold standard" there. Now, DOH favors the East so has again become the "gold standard".

Jim

Yes, the award on page 3 covers this. This is what I went to the meeting with, asking why. As you see, there is no discussion of the why there. The USAirways pilots NEVER as a group wanted off DOH in the Shuttle Merger. The bone of contention was the fact U was loaded with former EAL guys, who had resigned. The same was true of the Shuttle Guys. They RESIGNED their EAL positions. I have flown with former EAL F/A's who stayed at EAL, declined the RESIGNATION to go to Trump. They sit FAR below the former Shuttle F/A's. I believe the Shuttle F/A group retained their EAL seniority despite resigning.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Yes, the award on page 3 covers this. This is what I went to the meeting with, asking why. As you see, there is no discussion of the why there. The USAirways pilots NEVER as a group wanted off DOH in the Shuttle Merger. The bone of contention was the fact U was loaded with former EAL guys, who had resigned. The same was true of the Shuttle Guys. They RESIGNED their EAL positions. I have flown with former EAL F/A's who stayed at EAL, declined the RESIGNATION to go to Trump. They sit FAR below the former Shuttle F/A's. I believe the Shuttle F/A group retained their EAL seniority despite resigning.

The AFA agreed to EAL DOH for the FAs even before the merger took place. I vivdly remember those discussions.

Seemed kind of crazy then. Shows how well a group with scruples can function now.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The same was true of the Shuttle Guys. They RESIGNED their EAL positions.

So you're against the fragmentation policy in your contract?

Jim

 

[Barrister]

So you're against the fragmentation policy in your contract?

Jim

You play the part in the movie North Dallas Forty of the role played by Charles Durning.
He is a coach who berates the players after a tough loss. The character John Matusak plays
gets in his face and utters the famous line after a few expletives:

WHEN WE CALL IT A GAME YOU CALL IT A BUSINESS....AND WHEN WE CALL IT A BUSINESS YOU CALL IT A GAME !!!!!

WE KNOW WHAT YOU ARE ALL ABOUT...QUIT TRYING TO CONVINCE US!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[machflyer]

Seriously? 4 ALPA carriers and chairman of 2 committees. Not a dime in FPL. I expect value for my dues dollar and USAPA isn't providing any.

Which two committees was that? And you don't understand the processes and necessary infrastructure even now?