US Pilots Labor Discussion 4/6- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[CallawayGolf]

Sorry I confused you Oscar. Try this. What is your hire date. What is the hire date of the NW guy just below and above you on the "new" Delta list. Seems simple enough but I'll bet you won't answer!!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

Is there some relevance to DOH with the seniority integration of either the HP/US or DL/NW pilots? Did Nicolau issue his award based on DOH? Did a federal judge rule that DOH was the integration method to be used? It doesn’t appear that anyone with any authority to rule on how the seniority list would be integrated is the least bit concerned with DOH in this matter. Bringing it up is just a futile distraction from the reality of the situation. Perhaps you just are offering a little comic relief on otherwise quiet day for postings.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Sorry I confused you Oscar. Try this. What is your hire date. What is the hire date of the NW guy just below and above you on the "new" Delta list. Seems simple enough but I'll bet you won't answer!!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

Why in the world should he? With that kind of info a usapa goon could figure out who he is, or at least narrow it to within a newhire class, that's not something anyone with half a brain would want. We've all seen how low usapa will stoop.

 

[oscarjazz]

Sorry I confused you Oscar. Try this. What is your hire date. What is the hire date of the NW guy just below and above you on the "new" Delta list. Seems simple enough but I'll bet you won't answer!!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

That is all pretty personal. I also don't want to give out hire dates of other pilots without their permission. The difference in longevity is about 3 years, I think, I don't really pay any attention to it. We are all slotted in as 767-ER/757 captains and both of those guys fly the same equipment I do with the same relative seniority, so it worked out great. Do you have a point or are you just nosy?

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

That is all pretty personal. I also don't want to give out hire dates of other pilots without their permission. The difference in longevity is about 3 years, I think, I don't really pay any attention to it. We are all slotted in as 767-ER/757 captains and both of those guys fly the same equipment I do with the same relative seniority, so it worked out great. Do you have a point or are you just nosy?

I think he wants to build another 'dot' chart with the amazing moving bouncing dots. It will simulate the career path of someone at a failing airline after being acquired by a solvent one.

 

[Phoenix]

I think he wants to build another 'dot' chart with the amazing moving bouncing dots. It will simulate the career path of someone at a failing airline after being acquired by a solvent one.

I don't mind if anyone wants to peg their own job experience and quality of life to the vicissitudes of a company's solvency, but this silly notion that such a job can be referred to as a career or profession is beyond me. Its sorta like advertising hot garbage at a buffet. I mean, among garbage it has the distinction of being hot, but it ain't food.

 

[oscarjazz]

I think he wants to build another 'dot' chart with the amazing moving bouncing dots. It will simulate the career path of someone at a failing airline after being acquired by a solvent one.

Believe me, I have seen many of those dot charts and captain years lost graphs and all the rest of it. If their consultant was so good about predicting the future of the airline industry 5,10, or 30 years out, then he would be rich enough to have Bill Gates shine his shoes for him. That is the problem with those future predictions. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[Barrister]

That is all pretty personal. I also don't want to give out hire dates of other pilots without their permission. The difference in longevity is about 3 years, I think, I don't really pay any attention to it. We are all slotted in as 767-ER/757 captains and both of those guys fly the same equipment I do with the same relative seniority, so it worked out great. Do you have a point or are you just nosy?

OK....I'll try to break it down reeeeaaalll...ssslllooowwwww. The DAL/NW merger is cited as the model. My point is simple....it worked because the 2 companies were SO SIMILAR in fleet make-up as well as age..and longevity ie....SENIORITY .maybe a little younger on the DAL side due to the early outs by the DAL guys. So....... Oscar if you are gonna come over here and pontificate about your great merger....show us your REAL DEAL and don't whine about not wanting to give out someone else's seniority date. You guess 3 years....I'll bet not even close to that.

Put up or shut up

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

Believe me, I have seen many of those dot charts and captain years lost graphs and all the rest of it. If their consultant was so good about predicting the future of the airline industry 5,10, or 30 years out, then he would be rich enough to have Bill Gates shine his shoes for him. That is the problem with those future predictions. Garbage in, garbage out.

Wrong again OSCAR...the chart was based on 4 known quantitiies BEST case everyone retires at 60 who moves up post NIC and PRE NIC, how many retirements on the EAST and who FIILS those slots due to mandatory age 60 retirements. Pure math...no guess work. East F/Os were slaughtered. That is why:

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[nic4us]

Wrong again OSCAR...the chart was based on 4 known quantitiies BEST case everyone retires at 60 who moves up post NIC and PRE NIC, how many retirements on the EAST and who FIILS those slots due to mandatory age 60 retirements. Pure math...no guess work. East F/Os were slaughtered. That is why:

VNIIMN
NPJB

I personally put my number and date into the computer program some east pilot wrote trying to show the inequities of the Nic, vs. stand alone and DOH. Problem was it gave the wrong number out. It had me reaching a higher seniority number on the Nic than it did if the two companies never merged. There is no way my final number on the day I retire could be lower with the Nic, than it would have been at AWA.

Conclusion, the graphic data projected by this program is also in error. However, that silly graph does not show anything anybody was not aware of in the first place, nor is its information pertinant. It simply shows that over time, the widley dispersed West pilot dots, group together, then migrate to the top. Well, duh. But what the graphic displays so poorly, is that the total number of West pilots continues to decrease along with the east pilots, until in the end the top of the list is populated by former West pilots who were young enough to outlast everyone else. the pilot dots that are portrayed as east pilots, were not even hired or on property when the time lapse graph starts. So, you have a graph that says, as time goes on, seniority will continue to advance as it has done in every job that measures it, nothing more.

 

[RSVP767]

Is there some relevance to DOH with the seniority integration of either the HP/US or DL/NW pilots? Did Nicolau issue his award based on DOH? Did a federal judge rule that DOH was the integration method to be used? It doesn’t appear that anyone with any authority to rule on how the seniority list would be integrated is the least bit concerned with DOH in this matter. Bringing it up is just a futile distraction from the reality of the situation. Perhaps you just are offering a little comic relief on otherwise quiet day for postings.

Here's some relevance.......in the case of the DL/NW merger I believe the biggest differential in DOH was about 5 years. They now enjoy a joint contract, an active combined seniority list, and a fully merged airline. All this behind them now with a company moving ahead for the benefit of everyone.

Just like here at good old HP/US, right?!!! Moving ahead as one big happy family, no?!!!! Well maybe......just maybe, such an 'irrelevant' issue as DOH (or the lack of any consideration thereof) has something to do with the reality of our situation. And speaking of the reality of our situation, contrary to your statement, many who hold the ultimate authority (i.e.; a vote) have more than a little concern for DOH or at least some consideration for their dedicated years of service.

Now, while I know that the last three years has been nothing more than a futile little distraction for the West, the relief that is coming may be anything but comical!

 

[HP2USFA]

It still amazes me to see some of you still can't grasp the difference between longevity and seniority.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Here's some relevance.......in the case of the DL/NW merger I believe the biggest differential in DOH was about 5 years. They now enjoy a joint contract, an active combined seniority list, and a fully merged airline. All this behind them now with a company moving ahead for the benefit of everyone.

Just like here at good old HP/US, right?!!! Moving ahead as one big happy family, no?!!!! Well maybe......just maybe, such an 'irrelevant' issue as DOH (or the lack of any consideration thereof) has something to do with the reality of our situation. And speaking of the reality of our situation, contrary to your statement, many who hold the ultimate authority (i.e.; a vote) have more than a little concern for DOH or at least some consideration for their dedicated years of service.

Now, while I know that the last three years has been nothing more than a futile little distraction for the West, the relief that is coming may be anything but comical!

Not quite accurate. You have a single vote to cast for ratification of a CBA which will contain the NIC. You do not have a vote or any authority to use DOH or any other seniority scheme other than the NIC. It is settled and accepted and does not require ratification. To keep bringing up DOH after all the authorities who actually have a say over the list have ruled that NIC is it is like debating what it would have been like if you were born in a different century - it didn't happen and arguing over it won't change the facts.

 

[Flippin43]

It still amazes me to see some of you still can't grasp the difference between longevity and seniority.

For example, the #1 guy at Virgin America is the Senior Dude. He hasn't been there very long (about 1 1/2 hours in AAA time) so not much longevity but he is "Senior"

 

[RSVP767]

Not quite accurate. You have a single vote to cast for ratification of a CBA which will contain the NIC. You do not have a vote or any authority to use DOH or any other seniority scheme other than the NIC. It is settled and accepted and does not require ratification. To keep bringing up DOH after all the authorities who actually have a say over the list have ruled that NIC is it is like debating what it would have been like if you were born in a different century - it didn't happen and arguing over it won't change the facts.

Good Grief. Thanks for the 'education' old wise west one. Yes, I'm fully aware of where we are in this process AND WHY. And I think the argument/concept/debate over DOH has played a very 'relevant' role in it all.

But, since it is all settle now, how's that NIC list working for you? I'm having great difficulty finding that PHX base on our recent system bids.

 

[Freebird]

Good Grief. Thanks for the 'education' old wise west one. Yes, I'm fully aware of where we are in this process AND WHY. And I think the argument/concept/debate over DOH has played a very 'relevant' role in it all.

But, since it is all settle now, how's that NIC list working for you? I'm having great difficulty finding that PHX base on our recent system bids.

Last I checked, you are still below me on the Arbitrated List. Last I checked, USAPA has failed to produce a contract (2 years), Last I checked USAPA is bound to negotiat in good faith a contract which includes the Nic Award, Last I checked your group is still crying over a deal that you made, Final and Binding, but continue to avoid like children. Put a contract up for a vote and test your resolve old East wise one....