US Pilots Labor Discussion 4/6- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Pi brat]

Yes, I was guilty of tarring with a broad brush. Let me just say that most East posters and their portrayal of broad East solidarity with their views, suggest that most East pilots feel that way. It could be that the broad East solidarity of viewpoint doesn't really exist. While many (most?) East pilots may feel exactly as you say, the reality is that DOH allows East pilots to do to the West exactly what they say they don't want the West pilots to do to them. So you get desire for DOH so the formerly furloughed East pilots can replace West 757 captains while a West 737 captain doesn't have the seniority to bid the same 737 captain job in CLT/PHL/etc.

While those you've spoken to may not want to go West when the opportunity arises, is there any doubt that enough from the East side would jump at the chance to fill every West Captain vacancy available for years to come. Hmmm...do I stay on the East as a 190 F/O or go west and be a Captain, possibly on the 757...a really tough choice. That is the prospect the West would face with DOH.

As far as not wanting to see pilots coming in on top of "you" (generic) applies whether we're talking about West pilots or East pilots from other bases. No body wants to be held down or worse pushed backwards, no matter where those doing the holding or pushing come from. But while that is exactly what would happen to the West pilots under DOH as East pilots take advantage of their enhanced seniority out west, On the other hand, under Nic why would a West F/O move East for the same job held in PHX except for those who live closer to or in the east? So the threat to East pilots under Nic is magnitudes less than the threat to West pilots under DOH.

Jim

Jim,

A lot of us over here wish there had been some rational thinking going on before hand and we ended up with something in between DOH and the Nic-they just don't post on here. That didn't happen and a lot of guys are willing to go for the throat and DOH to fix it. Majority? I really don't know, but you know apathy kicked in a long time ago on the east and many guys are just along for the ride, but many are getting sick of the battle too. In the end it looks like a court or a merger will settle it.

I think a lot of west guys will end up in CLT for the same reason all those US/PS guys flushed a lot of PI 727 captains off. If we stayed static, there would be no problems, but we know this business never stays static and those of us that have upgraded and downgraded over and over again will get to watch a parade of guys come take their capt blocks away, even if it doesn't keep them from upgrading.

 

[Freebird]

You have little grasp of what no bump no flush means. Yes a furloughee may be placed ahead of the active employee but the furlougheee will not come back to work until there is an opening. And even then the East proposal accounted for time furloughed ...in other words furlough time did not count. No Bump No flush means just that no one takes another persons job. Period!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

Question, Were you an active pilot during the merger announcement and when the Transition Agreement was signed? That T/A, drafted in part 50:50 by your group, stated that no Furloughed Pilot would come back ahead of ANY ACTIVE pilot. Period.

I'm talking about the T/A that gives you a vote on whether to accept a contract with the NIC or not accept it. Your vote. BTW, when is the Vote?

Your Bump and Flush scheme will work good for you right? Maybe you'll upgrade before a joint contract...and then you cant be bumped. Another end around attempt at avoiding Binding Arbitration. Hey, you cant do it honestly, so you may as well cheat the established system right?

Many of your furloughed pilots had more FURLOUGH time than ACTIVE time and yet expect to be slotted in by DOH. Don't think so. Neither did ALPA. Nicolau. Parker. Etc.

Test your resolve with a vote. Let's go Cleary, you're failing us still.

NRBAGFY

 

[Barrister]

I'm not clear on how a 2:1 ratio of east to west pilots on the integrated list translates into "NIC gave practically all of the retirement upgrades on the EAST to West F/O". How exactly is 1 out of 3 practically all? Do the east pilots not get to take their 2:1 ratio advantage into PHX and upgrade on west retirements just as readily as a west pilot can take his 1:2 ratio to the east? Your claim fails to meet with the logical and statistical realities of the situation.

Your response, mathematically, may be sound, Some East F/Os will upgrade only to see WAY JUNIOR West F/Os bid in on top of then for eternity, however there is a large group of East F/Os who will NEVER check out as Captains because the guys out West who have been around for fewer years and are much YOUNGER will fill those East seats WAY ahead of any East F/O who has been around many more years......and the Westie will fly that left seat far LONGER....DO ANY OF YOU SERIOUSLY DISPUTE THIS. You think we are in a death spiral cause it's fun??????

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[cactusboy53]

Jim,

A lot of us over here wish there had been some rational thinking going on before hand and we ended up with something in between DOH and the Nic-they just don't post on here. That didn't happen and a lot of guys are willing to go for the throat and DOH to fix it. Majority? I really don't know, but you know apathy kicked in a long time ago on the east and many guys are just along for the ride, but many are getting sick of the battle too. In the end it looks like a court or a merger will settle it.

I think a lot of west guys will end up in CLT for the same reason all those US/PS guys flushed a lot of PI 727 captains off. If we stayed static, there would be no problems, but we know this business never stays static and those of us that have upgraded and downgraded over and over again will get to watch a parade of guys come take their capt blocks away, even if it doesn't keep them from upgrading.

Pi;
Just because you did not agree with the list does not mean that there was not a rationale to the list's assembly. You are right the courts will finally put this to bed and then perhaps a merger will put a grave marker on it to boot.

USAPA sold the angry pilot club a bill of goods that has yet to be obtained......oh wait there was a raise....for the USAPA leadership. It is time to pull Cleary & Mowrey, fire Seham and pray that we can find an experienced, competent legal team for what merger may come. Now is not the time to be apathetic. Just sitting around waiting for results will cost you big.

Dave

 

[Barrister]

Question, Were you an active pilot during the merger announcement and when the Transition Agreement was signed? That T/A, drafted in part 50:50 by your group, stated that no Furloughed Pilot would come back ahead of ANY ACTIVE pilot. Period.

I'm talking about the T/A that gives you a vote on whether to accept a contract with the NIC or not accept it. Your vote. BTW, when is the Vote?

Your Bump and Flush scheme will work good for you right? Maybe you'll upgrade before a joint contract...and then you cant be bumped. Another end around attempt at avoiding Binding Arbitration. Hey, you cant do it honestly, so you may as well cheat the established system right?

Many of your furloughed pilots had more FURLOUGH time than ACTIVE time and yet expect to be slotted in by DOH. Don't think so. Neither did ALPA. Nicolau. Parker. Etc.

Test your resolve with a vote. Let's go Cleary, you're failing us still.

NRBAGFY

Sorry Dude, been a Captain for 29 years and NO East F/O will be thrown under the bus with my vote. And any vote WITHOUT a min fleet should be DOA on BOTH SIDES. Kirby has no min fleet!!!!!
Game over.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

First, that consultant has been involved in 3 mergers, his work has been dismissed in all three. No one outside of his clients seem to believe anything he does. Second, his work was brought in to the DL/NW merger and found to be faulty. The numbers were found to be in error and every time the error favored his client. He is a paid advocate and his pay depends upon pleasing his clients. You can figure out the rest of that on your own. Third, even if his numbers were accurate they are all based on a future fleet of aircraft 20 or 30 years into the future. No one can even guess how many aircraft any airline will be operating two years from now much less 20 or 30 years into the future. A static fleet is not a valid assumption. If the East fleet was static, how did 17 year guys end up on the street prior to the merger?

Then you have the last equation, which is if you asked any analyst in 2005 how big a fleet US Air would have had in the future absent a merger, that number would have been zero. So all of those future projections are worth a bucket of spit. If I extrapolated out my 401K for the go-go years of the tech boom, I would be worth billions now. If you extrapolate for 2008, I would have nothing. Which projection is correct?

Come on Oscar....lots of typing from you but still no answer.....how many years more or less do you have that the NW guy right next to you. JATFQ.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[RSVP767]

And I'm sure it matters to West F/O's how long it will take them to upgrade post Nic as well. It comes down to availability and that should be an equal ability to both parties. That's what the arbitrator had in mind. I guess the only ones who think that every single upgrade to come post nic will fall to the West are you and some select others on the East camp. You all make it sound like it will be impossible to upgrade and we all know that's not true. Pilots will retire over the entire combined list. There are actually more options to upgrade in the merged environment than there would have been without the merger. If all you're wanting is 330 flying then you really have to ask yourself 'honestly' how likely you were to get it. I completely understand the feeling behind removing all hope to achieve a goal, but I also understand that sometimes there are just some goals I could never have achieved no matter how much I wanted it.

But again, as Richard has said many times before, none of us will affect the outcome short of a vote.

The West F/O will upgrade faster under NIC in nearly every case. Here's why. It comes down to availability as you said. The problem is that the arbitrator didn't keep this in mind. And it's not equal! The fact that 65% of the pilots (East) bring 80% of the availability (East attrition) while 35% of the pilots (West) bring 20% of the availability (West attrition) results in West relative postions improving over time while East relative positions are degraded over time when compared to their respective stand alone, non merged lists (assuming status quo, no growth, no shrinkage).

Example:
**Assumptions (for easy math) - 3200 East pilots. 1800 West pilots. 200 East retirements per year on average. 50 West retirements per year on average.
Now take the pilots 75% down each list. That would be #2400 on the East list and #1350 on the West list. Merge them with straight relative position. They now become #3750 and #3751 on the merged list. Now look 10 years down the road. 2000 East pilots have retired and 500 West pilots have retired. These two pilots are now #1250 and #1251 on the merged list and both now 25% down the list. No harm no foul right? Well, take a look at how each would have fared without merging the lists. The East pilot would have become #400 of 3200 and be 12% down the list. The West pilot would have become #850 of 1800 or 47% down the list. Under the merged list, where they are both now at the 25% mark, the East pilot has lost percentage by a factor of 2, while the West pilot has gained percentage by a factor of 2. Many East F/O's who would have otherwise upgraded, given the East attrition, will now find it nearly impossible to do so in the years they have remaining.

**Of course, this is not a perfect world and not all senior pilots are older so this is not necessarily a perfect linear process but I believe it illustrated the point and is not too far off base and the results are similar throughout the list.

I've read many West posts claiming to have lost relative position. Actually more should have, and to a greater degree to compansate for the disparity in 'availability' going forward. Over time the West relative position would improve, catch up, and in the end be more favorable. But the West can't seem to grasp that, nor the concept of sacrifice.


And yes, I get Senoirity vs DOH. Certainly the #1 guy at airline X may have 30 years while the #1 pilot at airline Y has 3 years. It's all relative right? And quite simple. Funny thing is both of those airlines used one to establish the other. The problem is trying to bring two groups like this together. You have to value one pilots position on a list who has experienced rapid and/or steady advancement while at the same time value someones time of continuous service to a company who has experienced challenges in that regard through no fault of their own. This is something I don't think Nicolau handled well. And Relative Position is a funny thing. Consider the fact that a pilot could be at 60% on a given list after 10 years yet find themselves at 95% on that same list after 15 years (just when someone decides to take a snap shot). The years however keep rolling on! Can't get them back. Professionals would understand and acknowledge this. For example, take the teaching profession. Someone teaches for 11 years then takes 10 years off to raise kids. Amazingly, when they return they start at 11 year pay with all the benefits and privliges provided to an 11 year teacher. Sadly, our 'profession' has become just another JOB in todays microwave society.

Unfortunately, for many on the West you will never 'get it' unless, or until, you've lived it. For those of you who have lived it (i.e.; Eastern, PanAm, TWA, etc.) forgive me, you do get it. For the rest of you, I really do hope you never 'get it'.

 

[Freebird]

Sorry Dude, been a Captain for 29 years and NO East F/O will be thrown under the bus with my vote. And any vote WITHOUT a min fleet should be DOA on BOTH SIDES. Kirby has no min fleet!!!!!
Game over.

VNIIMN
NPJB

You've been a Captain for 29 years...so did you get DOH? Top 517? East AFO's werent thrown under the bus by Nicolau either. He followed the process. Your demands of DOH werent met and never will be. The sooner you and your 'brother's' realize this, the sooner you will move on. In the meantime, keep spinning your wheels, going nowhere fast. Making Seham rich on your chase. It's over. Move on. Use your vote.

NRBAGFY

 

[BoeingBoy]

(assuming status quo, no growth, no shrinkage)

And that's one of the fallacies in your argument - there is no status quo that lasts indefinitely. In early 2005, the outlook was for US to cease to exist - what was that "status quo" expectation for advancement through attrition then? The merger gave US a reprieve, so now you want to claim a different status quo existed all along.

[qote]to a company who has experienced challenges in that regard through no fault of their own.[/quote]

The second fallacy. Every concessionary agreement that the pilot group ratified added to the "challenges" faced - outsourcing mainline flying, increasing max pay hours, etc - so the East pilot group does indeed bear some responsibility. Furloughs lasted longer, advancement took longer, reductions reversed previous advancement, etc. Not all responsibility but some responsibility goes directly to the East pilot group. Now you want West to accept the effects of East pilots' votes while you make up for what was lost by those votes.

Jim

 

[oscarjazz]

Come on Oscar....lots of typing from you but still no answer.....how many years more or less do you have that the NW guy right next to you. JATFQ.

VNIIMN
NPJB

I ATFQ, why don't you just peruse back to page 43 of this thread and read it. Now why don't you just ATFQ and tell me why it matters?

 

[Ames]

And that's one of the fallacies in your argument - there is no status quo that lasts indefinitely. In early 2005, the outlook was for US to cease to exist - what was that "status quo" expectation for advancement through attrition then? The merger gave US a reprieve, so now you want to claim a different status quo existed all along.

[qote]to a company who has experienced challenges in that regard through no fault of their own.

The second fallacy. Every concessionary agreement that the pilot group ratified added to the "challenges" faced - outsourcing mainline flying, increasing max pay hours, etc - so the East pilot group does indeed bear some responsibility. Furloughs lasted longer, advancement took longer, reductions reversed previous advancement, etc. Not all responsibility but some responsibility goes directly to the East pilot group. Now you want West to accept the effects of East pilots' votes while you make up for what was lost by those votes.

Jim
[/quote]


This is the very crux of the matter. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Ames]

I ATFQ, why don't you just peruse back to page 43 of this thread and read it. Now why don't you just ATFQ and tell me why it matters?

Oscar, the only reason it matters is because you are not telling him what he wants to hear. These guys don't want facts, they want affirmation.

 

[Metroyet]

Oscar, the only reason it matters is because you are not telling him what he wants to hear. These guys don't want facts, they want affirmation.

When did that ever stop an Eastie?!!

BTW, anybody read Sehams latest "Emergency" submitted to the 9th? I guess he's gotta start grabbing for cash as quickly as possible before UAL pilots combine with the West and absolutely DESTROY USAPA.

 

[Freebird]

The West F/O will upgrade faster under NIC in nearly every case. Here's why. It comes down to availability as you said. The problem is that the arbitrator didn't keep this in mind. And it's not equal! The fact that 65% of the pilots (East) bring 80% of the availability (East attrition) while 35% of the pilots (West) bring 20% of the availability (West attrition) results in West relative postions improving over time while East relative positions are degraded over time when compared to their respective stand alone, non merged lists (assuming status quo, no growth, no shrinkage).

Example:
**Assumptions (for easy math) - 3200 East pilots. 1800 West pilots. 200 East retirements per year on average. 50 West retirements per year on average.
Now take the pilots 75% down each list. That would be #2400 on the East list and #1350 on the West list. Merge them with straight relative position. They now become #3750 and #3751 on the merged list. Now look 10 years down the road. 2000 East pilots have retired and 500 West pilots have retired. These two pilots are now #1250 and #1251 on the merged list and both now 25% down the list. No harm no foul right? Well, take a look at how each would have fared without merging the lists. The East pilot would have become #400 of 3200 and be 12% down the list. The West pilot would have become #850 of 1800 or 47% down the list. Under the merged list, where they are both now at the 25% mark, the East pilot has lost percentage by a factor of 2, while the West pilot has gained percentage by a factor of 2. Many East F/O's who would have otherwise upgraded, given the East attrition, will now find it nearly impossible to do so in the years they have remaining.

**Of course, this is not a perfect world and not all senior pilots are older so this is not necessarily a perfect linear process but I believe it illustrated the point and is not too far off base and the results are similar throughout the list.

I've read many West posts claiming to have lost relative position. Actually more should have, and to a greater degree to compansate for the disparity in 'availability' going forward. Over time the West relative position would improve, catch up, and in the end be more favorable. But the West can't seem to grasp that, nor the concept of sacrifice.


And yes, I get Senoirity vs DOH. Certainly the #1 guy at airline X may have 30 years while the #1 pilot at airline Y has 3 years. It's all relative right? And quite simple. Funny thing is both of those airlines used one to establish the other. The problem is trying to bring two groups like this together. You have to value one pilots position on a list who has experienced rapid and/or steady advancement while at the same time value someones time of continuous service to a company who has experienced challenges in that regard through no fault of their own. This is something I don't think Nicolau handled well. And Relative Position is a funny thing. Consider the fact that a pilot could be at 60% on a given list after 10 years yet find themselves at 95% on that same list after 15 years (just when someone decides to take a snap shot). The years however keep rolling on! Can't get them back. Professionals would understand and acknowledge this. For example, take the teaching profession. Someone teaches for 11 years then takes 10 years off to raise kids. Amazingly, when they return they start at 11 year pay with all the benefits and privliges provided to an 11 year teacher. Sadly, our 'profession' has become just another JOB in todays microwave society.

Unfortunately, for many on the West you will never 'get it' unless, or until, you've lived it. For those of you who have lived it (i.e.; Eastern, PanAm, TWA, etc.) forgive me, you do get it. For the rest of you, I really do hope you never 'get it'.

The East's mantra from day one was DOH. Total disregard for anybody other pilot's expectations but their own. The snapshot given to the arbitrator was that of Active pilots and what their career expectations would be with a new combined list. Not what they were (except the top 517). The West pilots have sacrificed because of this. The East pilots want the West to sacrifice in a different way. The East wants to punish the West because the East pilots career was in shambles. To 'make up' for lost time.

Let me ask you; "if the East pilots had such great career expectations, why did some leave and choose NOT to return?"

Please don't mislead readers with the fact that some East F.O.s may never upgrade because of the Nicolau Award. They may never have upgraded period. With or without the award. US Airways was on its deathbed.

You said "The years however keep rolling on! Can't get them back. Professionals would understand and acknowledge this. "

You are right. Professionals would understand this. You see, neither group of pilots sought out this merger, management did. When the groups had to come together fairly, the established process was used. The Arbitrator didnt succumb to demands from either side (DOH on the East) and he cautioned each side to lower expectations. Who do you blame for the fact that you didn't get want you demanded?

Now, those years we've wasted and will not get back are adding up. Why? because USAPA is a failed attempt to circumvent the NIC. With an injunction against them and multiple losses adding up, when do you think it's time to accept (understand and acknowledge) the Nicolau Award ?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Your response, mathematically, may be sound, Some East F/Os will upgrade only to see WAY JUNIOR West F/Os bid in on top of then for eternity, however there is a large group of East F/Os who will NEVER check out as Captains because the guys out West who have been around for fewer years and are much YOUNGER will fill those East seats WAY ahead of any East F/O who has been around many more years......and the Westie will fly that left seat far LONGER....DO ANY OF YOU SERIOUSLY DISPUTE THIS. You think we are in a death spiral cause it's fun??????

VNIIMN
NPJB

Who is really to blame if a pilot spends his whole career in the right seat? Other than for the east pilots where else has this been an issue? Did AA, DL, CO, NW, or WN pilots have to deal with this kind of prospect in their careers? If not, why only US east pilots and who, if anyone, was to blame for that on September 26, 2005? The west pilots didn’t cause this problem. Doug Parker and AWA didn’t cause this problem. It existed long before the merger.

When the merger occurred it required the two pilots groups to come to an agreement on the terms of an integrated seniority system was reasonable for both groups. The NIC meets the pre-agreed upon conditions and it is reasonable for both groups to have the ability to retain the same seat/group they were able to hold prior to integration. The “fact” that a particular pilot will not upgrade is not anyone’s fault other than the pilot himself who chose to join a particular airline at a particular time which turned out to mean that his career would not advance as far as a pilot who joined a different airline at a time which would afford him the opportunity to upgrade. Blaming NIC or the west pilots for the circumstances that were beyond their control is like kicking the dog because you had a bad day at work. Wrong reaction and a wrong target of your frustrations.

Remember where this industry was before the hopefully temporary economic struggles the world is currently in? Predictions of pilot shortages and massive hiring/training were forecasted to meet demand. Things can change just as quickly if the economy and consumer demand recover.

IATA Pilot Shortage

BTW, I'm sorry you feel as though you are in a death spiral. However, closing your eyes and wishing you weren't in the situation won't make it go away. Better to deal with reality and find a better solution than to just ignore the obvious facts of the matter at hand.