US Pilots Labor Discussion 4/6- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

Forgot to mention, Jeff Freund is the UAL merger committe legal council. Heard of him? He wrote a couple letters responding to Seeham, explaining how what usapa was trying to do was illegal, also sent one to the company explaining that if they came off the Nic, they too would be on the hook. So I highly doubt the UAL NC would be in a place to act like the Nic did not exist, nor would they care too.

I am also hearing Seeham is promising Cleary that a UAL merger can still get the east pilots DOH. If a merger does move forward the first, best thing the LCC pilots could do would be FIRE Seeham, and right away. Then find competent legal counsel to proffer a workable integration between the UAL pilots and the LCC pilots on the Nic. If LCC pilots go into this the way the east approached the Nic arbitration, the LCC pilots (both east and West) will not do well.

 

[aquagreen73s]

If LCC pilots go into this the way the east approached the Nic arbitration, the LCC pilots (both east and West) will not do well.

I disagree as the Nic arbitration proves otherwise. There the East didn't even show up to arbitrate. All they did is drop an ultimatum on the table for DOH, then tell the arbitrator to basically piss off, that they weren't going to come off of it, yet look what happened: they got something noticeably better than the AWA final proposal. Not bad for basically defaulting.

The arbitrator bunch is a professional circle in which everyone knows everyone. The one or three arbitrators who would handle a United-LCC integration (if that should ever happen) would know the score. Despite the best efforts of the pure East merger committee to screw it up yet again, I think there'd be a decision that is pretty much fair across the board.

 

[nic4us]

I disagree as the Nic arbitration proves otherwise. There the East didn't even show up to arbitrate. All they did is drop an ultimatum on the table for DOH, then tell the arbitrator to basically piss off, that they weren't going to come off of it, yet look what happened: they got something noticeably better than the AWA final proposal. Not bad for basically defaulting.

The arbitrator bunch is a professional circle in which everyone knows everyone. The one or three arbitrators who would handle a United-LCC integration (if that should ever happen) would know the score. Despite the best efforts of the pure East merger committee to screw it up yet again, I think there'd be a decision that is pretty much fair across the board.

You are right that the east did better than they should have with out even negotiating. But, while I personally feel the east got more than they deserved in the Nic, it is plausible they could have done better if they would have been proactive in proffering another solution. How could they have fared if they said to Nicolau, " your right, DOH is inherintely unfair in this situation, our new position is a 3:2 ratio with a 20 year fence on 180 airplanes reserved for the east? seeking not the system seniority advantage, but an equiptment advantage.

The findings of both the Northwest and United merger committes, when they reviewed the Nic, was straight forward. It is much better to reach a negotiated settlement, or at least have a reasonable expectation and arguement if you have to go to arbitration.

The east NC had no inkling of the position they were in, and were lucky Nicolau did not think it necessary or fair to harm them in his decision. usapa seems to be signaling the same ignorance of situational awareness that the east MEC had. The very idea that they think it is possible that they could make up a list to bring to the table, while under a federal injunction and approaching parties who would laugh them out of the room for doing so, proves my point.

 

[aquagreen73s]

You're right about the fact that a party will always do better if they litigate intelligently. But what's great about arbitration is that unlike in a trial setting where a default equals a total loss, the arbitrator has a lot more discretion to mete out a decision that he or she deems fair. They could still tell the defaulting party to pack sand and take the position of the nondefaulting party, but Nicolau didn't do that in our arb.

For the life of me I'll never be able to understand the justification for the 517. I could see the top positions being allotted according to the number of WB capt positions, but what's up with the F/Os and relief positions being thrown in there?

 

[hp_fa]

He probably decided that the prior 747 experience was too far removed to be figured into the decision and, possibly, tried to keep the company from incurring additional retraining costs.

Anyway, that's my guess.

 

[nycbusdriver]

No, NYC, you have misread this one. Parker is a hero to his peers. Most of them dream of such a schism between their pilots that has yielded virtually no operational downside and huge cost benefits.

I disagree. The greedy airline managers make their REALLY big money by packaging their airline for sale, then selling it. Parker has left himself out in the cold on this one. He's got himself a real pig now, and can't do anything with it.

 

[N924PS]

I disagree. The greedy airline managers make their REALLY big money by packaging their airline for sale, then selling it. Parker has left himself out in the cold on this one. He's got himself a real pig now, and can't do anything with it.

Parker will continue to laugh all the way to the bank while your stuck working for the "Flying Pig Airways" in whatever form it evolves or stagnates. Good thing you're independently wealthy.

 

[HP2USFA]

I knew the America West theft of East flying was bad when I saw the "Shining Stars" doing CLT/ATL/CLT turns all day - I never dreamed it was THIS bad.

Oh good gracious... theft? As if the West pilots have ANY say in what routes are put in their rigs. Not to mention the number of turns out of PHX to destinations West of the Mississippi flown by East metal is more than comparable.

We've lost routes to East flying just as you've lost routes to the West. The only one who can explain why is the company and we all know how good they are at offering explanations.

 

[oscarjazz]

You're right about the fact that a party will always do better if they litigate intelligently. But what's great about arbitration is that unlike in a trial setting where a default equals a total loss, the arbitrator has a lot more discretion to mete out a decision that he or she deems fair. They could still tell the defaulting party to pack sand and take the position of the nondefaulting party, but Nicolau didn't do that in our arb.

For the life of me I'll never be able to understand the justification for the 517. I could see the top positions being allotted according to the number of WB capt positions, but what's up with the F/Os and relief positions being thrown in there?

The justification for the 517 is longevity. The opposite of "longevity means everything" is not "longevity means nothing". It does have a value, just not the same value as USAPA thinks. Longevity was recognized in the DL/NW case also with the "pull and plug" treatment. In that case the DL pilots did not walk away from the table. When faced with a "request" from the arbitrators to come up with a treatment for the longevity differential, they complied with their request and it was accepted. It is always better to control your own fate.

In my opinion, arbitrators don't punish parties for failing to cooperate with the process. Nor do they reward parties for taking extreme positions. If you do cooperate and come up with reasonable solutions you stand the chance to continue to affect the outcome all the way to the end. If you stick on an extreme position then your input is meaningless.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Not to mention the number of turns out of PHX to destinations West of the Mississippi flown by East metal is more than comparable.

The only one who can explain why is the company and we all know how good they are at offering explanations.

Nope - 24% West flying our routes vs 4% in return.

The explanation is the West is a boat anchor that needs to be excised asap.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Nope - 24% West flying our routes vs 4% in return.

Absolutely false. The East has completely infiltrated West flying on a scale of 2:1. Plus the East has stolen the EMB flying and the ATA 757s from the West.

Trust me, your sins have not gone unnoticed on this property and elsewhere.

 

[Barrister]

The justification for the 517 is longevity. The opposite of "longevity means everything" is not "longevity means nothing". It does have a value, just not the same value as USAPA thinks. Longevity was recognized in the DL/NW case also with the "pull and plug" treatment. In that case the DL pilots did not walk away from the table. When faced with a "request" from the arbitrators to come up with a treatment for the longevity differential, they complied with their request and it was accepted. It is always better to control your own fate.

In my opinion, arbitrators don't punish parties for failing to cooperate with the process. Nor do they reward parties for taking extreme positions. If you do cooperate and come up with reasonable solutions you stand the chance to continue to affect the outcome all the way to the end. If you stick on an extreme position then your input is meaningless.

Still waiting on you to tell us the seniority difference between you and the NW guy just above and below you on the "new" Delta list.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

You are right that the east did better than they should have with out even negotiating. But, while I personally feel the east got more than they deserved in the Nic, it is plausible they could have done better if they would have been proactive in proffering another solution. How could they have fared if they said to Nicolau, " your right, DOH is inherintely unfair in this situation, our new position is a 3:2 ratio with a 20 year fence on 180 airplanes reserved for the east? seeking not the system seniority advantage, but an equiptment advantage.

The findings of both the Northwest and United merger committes, when they reviewed the Nic, was straight forward. It is much better to reach a negotiated settlement, or at least have a reasonable expectation and arguement if you have to go to arbitration.

The east NC had no inkling of the position they were in, and were lucky Nicolau did not think it necessary or fair to harm them in his decision. usapa seems to be signaling the same ignorance of situational awareness that the east MEC had. The very idea that they think it is possible that they could make up a list to bring to the table, while under a federal injunction and approaching parties who would laugh them out of the room for doing so, proves my point.

In time me thinks your side will beg us or SOMEONE do do something different as you go into year 5, 6, 7, 8, ......or how ever many you go WITHOUT NIC. How long has it been so far. Are we there yet daddy????

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[OTTER574]

I knew the America West theft of East flying was bad when I saw the "Shining Stars" doing CLT/ATL/CLT turns all day - I never dreamed it was THIS bad.

You need to read the America West/US Airways Transitional Agreement in it's entirety, before you make such statements that are clearly false. TA 10 West win on block hours comes to mind.

Seems to be an ed bular/east/usapa/lee seham trademark.

 

[nic4us]

In time me thinks your side will beg us or SOMEONE do do something different as you go into year 5, 6, 7, 8, ......or how ever many you go WITHOUT NIC. How long has it been so far. Are we there yet daddy????

VNIIMN
NPJB

Me thinks usapa will not make it much past their coming 2nd anniversary, but if they do, the damages award will have one side begging for something different alright.