US Pilots Labor Discussion 4/6- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[HP2USFA]

For example, the #1 guy at Virgin America is the Senior Dude. He hasn't been there very long (about 1 1/2 hours in AAA time) so not much longevity but he is "Senior"

Exactly! He can hold whatever he wants. If they had WB's he'd be flying them as a Captain. Just because his airline started after AAA does not negate the fact that he was able to hold what he could based on where he was in the pecking order. THAT is seniority.

There's a great difference between being senior and being a senior.

It's not that difficult to grasp if you're able to step away from the concept that your age and your time at your airline means more than where you are on the pecking order and what seat you're able to hold based on that position.

Airline A has 2500 pilots and has been in business for 50 years. Airline B has 2500 pilots and has been in business for 25. The combined list goes off seniority taking full credit for each groups ability to hold what they could when the merger happened. Toss in a few exceptions here and there for differences in equipment and you have a pretty fair list BASED ON SENIORITY. The bottom active guy at airline A is next to the bottom active guy at airline B (they're BOTH at the BOTTOM of their relative seniority lists). It's clear, it's understandable.

I don't know... perhaps if pay for pilots went off of longevity instead of aircraft position the Nic wouldn't be as offensive.

 

[traderjake]

But, since it is all settle now, how's that NIC list working for you? .

How's fighting that NIC list working for us?

$85 per hour and no upgrades. Damage payments to be announced.

We're real men of genius.

 

[BoeingBoy]

BASED ON SENIORITY.

That's the problem the East has with Nic - it's based on actual seniority so doesn't reward their longevity by giving them what someone at another airline got in fewer years. It's also the basis for the argument used by some that relative position in the DL/NW merger only works because the airlines were so similar - if the combined list walks like DOH, talks like DOH, looks like DOH, and works like DOH, relative position is fair but not anywhere else. It all comes back to trying to justify DOH in the end.

Jim

 

[HP2USFA]

I guess I've never quite understood the concept of complaining about or condemning the actions of someone when you want to turn around and do the same thing in return. I'm just not built like that so it's sometimes difficult to put myself in that mindset to understand where someone is coming from.

You don't want a new hire above a 17 year bottom of the list, but you want to put a furlough above an active employee. You don't want someone to violate your seniority, but you want to violate someone else's. :blink: I'm sorry but we don't live in the 1950s anymore. The days of the majority expecting the minority to move to the back of the bus are over. I'm sorry to use such a demonstrative example but that's what it reminds me of. The pure arrogance that some folks portray in their thinking that they're entitled to everything they desire at the expense of everyone else simply because of their position. Be it personal or professional. I certainly don't equate the actual struggles with any from history... just the mindset.

You can demand the incredulous... but don't be shocked when folks look at you funny. h34r:

 

[Barrister]

I guess I've never quite understood the concept of complaining about or condemning the actions of someone when you want to turn around and do the same thing in return. I'm just not built like that so it's sometimes difficult to put myself in that mindset to understand where someone is coming from.

You don't want a new hire above a 17 year bottom of the list, but you want to put a furlough above an active employee. You don't want someone to violate your seniority, but you want to violate someone else's. :blink: I'm sorry but we don't live in the 1950s anymore. The days of the majority expecting the minority to move to the back of the bus are over. I'm sorry to use such a demonstrative example but that's what it reminds me of. The pure arrogance that some folks portray in their thinking that they're entitled to everything they desire at the expense of everyone else simply because of their position. Be it personal or professional. I certainly don't equate the actual struggles with any from history... just the mindset.

You can demand the incredulous... but don't be shocked when folks look at you funny. h34r:

You have little grasp of what no bump no flush means. Yes a furloughee may be placed ahead of the active employee but the furlougheee will not come back to work until there is an opening. And even then the East proposal accounted for time furloughed ...in other words furlough time did not count. No Bump No flush means just that no one takes another persons job. Period!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

That's the problem the East has with Nic - it's based on actual seniority so doesn't reward their longevity by giving them what someone at another airline got in fewer years. It's also the basis for the argument used by some that relative position in the DL/NW merger only works because the airlines were so similar - if the combined list walks like DOH, talks like DOH, looks like DOH, and works like DOH, relative position is fair but not anywhere else. It all comes back to trying to justify DOH in the end.

Jim

That my friend is a bunch of garbage and you know it. NIC gave practically all of the retirement upgrades on the EAST to West F/O. It makes NO difference to anyone out EAST how long it took a west f/o to upgrade OUT WEST, but it does matter to each and every EAST F/O how long it will take them to do it AFTER NIC. For you to pontificate otherwise is nonsense and most of all YOU KNOW IT. You have a burr under your saddle to the same people you flew with you and wathched your rear for years and now you have no problem if none of them ever upgrade....tell us please ....what is your real deal???? Inquiring minds want to know??

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[HP2USFA]

You have little grasp of what no bump no flush means. Yes a furloughee may be placed ahead of the active employee but the furlougheee will not come back to work until there is an opening. And even then the East proposal accounted for time furloughed ...in other words furlough time did not count. No Bump No flush means just that no one takes another persons job. Reriod!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

But straight DOH would negate No Bump No Flush, would it not? I guess maybe I don't understand the concept as you've explained it. It a furloughee were put above an active employee, but did not come back until there was an opening, wouldn't it be a breach of seniority since that active employee is now employed while the more senior furlough is not? Again, how is that system not expressly designed to violate seniority? And if it's not a violation, but an 'acceptable exception' to the rule, why then is a relative merged seniority list completely untenable?

I don't understand how it's ok to bend the rule one way but not another.

That my friend is a bunch of garbage and you know it. NIC gave practically all of the retirement upgrades on the EAST to West F/O. It makes NO difference to anyone out EAST how long it took a west f/o to upgrade OUT WEST, but it does matter to each and every EAST F/O how long it will take them to do it AFTER NIC.

And I'm sure it matters to West F/O's how long it will take them to upgrade post Nic as well. It comes down to availability and that should be an equal ability to both parties. That's what the arbitrator had in mind. I guess the only ones who think that every single upgrade to come post nic will fall to the West are you and some select others on the East camp. You all make it sound like it will be impossible to upgrade and we all know that's not true. Pilots will retire over the entire combined list. There are actually more options to upgrade in the merged environment than there would have been without the merger. If all you're wanting is 330 flying then you really have to ask yourself 'honestly' how likely you were to get it. I completely understand the feeling behind removing all hope to achieve a goal, but I also understand that sometimes there are just some goals I could never have achieved no matter how much I wanted it.

But again, as Richard has said many times before, none of us will affect the outcome short of a vote.

 

[BoeingBoy]

No Bump No flush means just that no one takes another persons job. Period!!

Perhaps it's you that should do a little research. No bump/no flush (actually just the no bump part) just means that one person can't take another's job the moment the combined list goes into effect. It says nothing about what happens over time as each new bid comes out. That's when one person can take another's job - the East former furloughed can take the job of the West captain.

That my friend is a bunch of garbage and you know it. NIC gave practically all of the retirement upgrades on the EAST to West F/O.

I know it doesn't fit your wishes but that doesn't make it "garbage" - perhaps it's your view that's garbage.

The second sentence doesn't even make sense. I've asked before with no answer since that answer wouldn't comport with a mindset such as yours. Where on the Nic list is the big block of only West F/O's that will prevent the East F/O's from upgrading. Point it out since I can't find such a solid block of West F/O's anywhere on the list. As much as you'd like to protray it otherwise, the fact is that about 2 East pilots have the opportunity to move up for each 1 West pilot that has that opportunity, whether to bigger equipment or to the left seat.

Jim
IDMITMVNIIMN

 

[Pi brat]

That's the problem the East has with Nic - it's based on actual seniority so doesn't reward their longevity by giving them what someone at another airline got in fewer years.

Jim

Jim,

That's kind of a broad statement, isn't it? I have never heard one of my co-workers say that, they just don't want tons of west guys coming in on top of them in the east bases. Not s single one of my friends has any desire to go west. A lot of us out east didn't think DOH would fly with the then current ALPA merger policy, but that doesn't mean we think Nic got it right either. One of the things I think he got wrong was giving the 517 super seniority if they want to walk into PHX and take the top slots. Does that make me a hypocrite?

 

[aquagreen73s]

A lot of us out east didn't think DOH would fly with the then current ALPA merger policy,

So when you didn't get it in the arbitration, you decided to try an unprecedented end run around the arbitration by exploiting your majority status to your benefit and to the detriment of the minority.

 

[oscarjazz]

OK....I'll try to break it down reeeeaaalll...ssslllooowwwww. The DAL/NW merger is cited as the model. My point is simple....it worked because the 2 companies were SO SIMILAR in fleet make-up as well as age..and longevity ie....SENIORITY .maybe a little younger on the DAL side due to the early outs by the DAL guys. So....... Oscar if you are gonna come over here and pontificate about your great merger....show us your REAL DEAL and don't whine about not wanting to give out someone else's seniority date. You guess 3 years....I'll bet not even close to that.

Put up or shut up

VNIIMN
NPJB

Okay the actual difference is 3 years and 1 month. Happy now. By the way, that's about 3 years in my book.

The merger is cited as a model because we decided that rather than fight a legal death match against each other, we would get over the seniority list issue quickly and then make the company pay us more money for the favor. I am sure you fly airplanes for the glory and adulation you get from the public but I am quite pedestrian; I do it for the money. Also, I have $65,000 of company stock in my 401K as a result of the merger. That will help rebuild my retirement.

You guys want to continue this foolish quest towards DOH and you will never win. Along the way you are sacrificing hundreds of millions in pay and benefits that you get from LCC management as a reward for getting this done. So vote no if it means Nic, it doesn't matter to me. I like to make money when I work and that is the only gauge I use.

 

[Pi brat]

So when you didn't get it in the arbitration, you decided to try an unprecedented end run around the arbitration by exploiting your majority status to your benefit and to the detriment of the minority.

I didn't scooter, again a little broad. I'm along for the ride just like you. Angry F/O club-west I see.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yes, I was guilty of tarring with a broad brush. Let me just say that most East posters and their portrayal of broad East solidarity with their views, suggest that most East pilots feel that way. It could be that the broad East solidarity of viewpoint doesn't really exist. While many (most?) East pilots may feel exactly as you say, the reality is that DOH allows East pilots to do to the West exactly what they say they don't want the West pilots to do to them. So you get desire for DOH so the formerly furloughed East pilots can replace West 757 captains while a West 737 captain doesn't have the seniority to bid the same 737 captain job in CLT/PHL/etc.

While those you've spoken to may not want to go West when the opportunity arises, is there any doubt that enough from the East side would jump at the chance to fill every West Captain vacancy available for years to come. Hmmm...do I stay on the East as a 190 F/O or go west and be a Captain, possibly on the 757...a really tough choice. That is the prospect the West would face with DOH.

As far as not wanting to see pilots coming in on top of "you" (generic) applies whether we're talking about West pilots or East pilots from other bases. No body wants to be held down or worse pushed backwards, no matter where those doing the holding or pushing come from. But while that is exactly what would happen to the West pilots under DOH as East pilots take advantage of their enhanced seniority out west, On the other hand, under Nic why would a West F/O move East for the same job held in PHX except for those who live closer to or in the east? So the threat to East pilots under Nic is magnitudes less than the threat to West pilots under DOH.

Jim

 

[oscarjazz]

Wrong again OSCAR...the chart was based on 4 known quantitiies BEST case everyone retires at 60 who moves up post NIC and PRE NIC, how many retirements on the EAST and who FIILS those slots due to mandatory age 60 retirements. Pure math...no guess work. East F/Os were slaughtered. That is why:

VNIIMN
NPJB

First, that consultant has been involved in 3 mergers, his work has been dismissed in all three. No one outside of his clients seem to believe anything he does. Second, his work was brought in to the DL/NW merger and found to be faulty. The numbers were found to be in error and every time the error favored his client. He is a paid advocate and his pay depends upon pleasing his clients. You can figure out the rest of that on your own. Third, even if his numbers were accurate they are all based on a future fleet of aircraft 20 or 30 years into the future. No one can even guess how many aircraft any airline will be operating two years from now much less 20 or 30 years into the future. A static fleet is not a valid assumption. If the East fleet was static, how did 17 year guys end up on the street prior to the merger?

Then you have the last equation, which is if you asked any analyst in 2005 how big a fleet US Air would have had in the future absent a merger, that number would have been zero. So all of those future projections are worth a bucket of spit. If I extrapolated out my 401K for the go-go years of the tech boom, I would be worth billions now. If you extrapolate for 2008, I would have nothing. Which projection is correct?

 

[CallawayGolf]

That my friend is a bunch of garbage and you know it. NIC gave practically all of the retirement upgrades on the EAST to West F/O.

I'm not clear on how a 2:1 ratio of east to west pilots on the integrated list translates into "NIC gave practically all of the retirement upgrades on the EAST to West F/O". How exactly is 1 out of 3 practically all? Do the east pilots not get to take their 2:1 ratio advantage into PHX and upgrade on west retirements just as readily as a west pilot can take his 1:2 ratio to the east? Your claim fails to meet with the logical and statistical realities of the situation.