US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[BoeingBoy]

The majority did say that

Care to point out where the 9th said those exact words? Further, care to point out where the 9th said that the dissent's assumption that the Nic was binding on ALPA was wrong?

Jim

 

[ROACLT]

Good luck to all in the back and forth over the next month. My wife has read me the riot act and its time to get things together and get the kids ready for family vacation. A month of camping, crabbing and fishing in the San Juan islands. I am sure things will still be aflame when we get back. As I get ready for the trip, I will say it saddens me that my job affords me a better life style than you all collectively have ended up with as pilots. I really hope some day pilots get it together. If you wonder why I comment on this, its because Longshoreman, Boilermakers, Merchant Marines, Harbor Pilots, and a slew of other unions that have just simply out preformed pilots for no other reason than they behave like unions should continue to tell you to get your act together because, you obviously lack the collective will and nothing else is getting through. I know it sounds preachy but it is sad to see where my friends, one time peers have ended up. Have fun and I am sure I will have 1000's of posts and many threads to read through.

 

[ROACLT]

Care to point out where the 9th said those exact words? Further, care to point out where the 9th said that the dissent's assumption that the Nic was binding on ALPA was wrong?

Jim

I caught this one before I signed off. It was obvious they weren't going to comment, because from a legal point of view they were not attempting to narrow what "good faith" requires in any way. Any act will simply be judged on its own merit to that standard including a ratified agreement that does not contain the ALPA Nicalou proposal. As to comments about Arbitrary or Discriminatory behavior, plaintiffs conceded those points because there was no case for them. While the trial no longer exists as a matter of law, I would assume any future claim will be base on "good faith" requirement(bad faith act) as the initial claim was made. Ok, now I really have to go but I am sure I will be able to jump right back in to the discussion in a month.

 

[767jetz]

The list you refer to was only relevant to ALPA and as the 9th clearly observed and noted that ALPA's overall prerogative was to achieve a ratified agreement, even if it required subsequent modified proposals to be acceptable.

This is where you are clearly wrong, and interpreting things into what the 9th actually ruled on... ripeness and nothing else. But believe what you want. We will see what happens as soon as USAPA puts forth a contract to vote on.

From someone in another industry...

That says it all.

 

[Al Legheny]

I caught this one before I signed off. It was obvious they weren't going to comment, because from a legal point of view they were not attempting to narrow what "good faith" requires in any way. Any act will simply be judged on its own merit to that standard including a ratified agreement that does not contain the ALPA Nicalou proposal. As to comments about Arbitrary or Discriminatory behavior, plaintiffs conceded those points because there was no case for them. While the trial no longer exists as a matter of law, I would assume any future claim will be base on "good faith" requirement(bad faith act) as the initial claim was made. Ok, now I really have to go but I am sure I will be able to jump right back in to the discussion in a month.

Ah yes there is that matter of Bad Faith. The thing is Bad Faith in the DFR concept is different from run of the mill contractual bad faith. It has been defined by the SCOUS and is quoted in the 9th in other cases.

​

Bad Faith
How does ALPA define it?

The Duty of Fair Representation was clarified in a US Supreme Court case in 1966 called Vaca v. Sipes, 386 U.S. 171 (1967). “A union breaches this duty only when its “conduct toward a member of the collective bargaining unit is arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith.” Vaca v. Sipes, 386 U.S. 171, 190, 87 S.Ct. 903, 916, 17 L.Ed.2d 842 (1967).”

In the Addington litigation the plaintiffs have abandoned the arbitrary or discriminatory focus of their claim and concentrated on bad faith. Bad faith is a broad term that can encompass a great deal of behavior. However the US Supreme Court has further clarified Bad Faith in another important case with regards to the DFR standard. In “HUMPHREY v. MOORE, 375 U.S. 335 (1964), the Supreme Court found a definition of Bad Faith. “Although the union at first advised the Dealers drivers that they had nothing to worry about but later supported the E & L employees before the Joint Conference Committee, there is no substantial evidence of fraud, deceitful action or dishonest conduct.”


Now, Let’s see how ALPA defines “Bad Faith” with regards to the DFR case filed by former TWA pilots.

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY

CAMDEN VICINAGE

(LEROY “BUD” BENSEL, et al. )

Plaintiffs,

(v. ) Civil Action No. 02-2917 (JEI)

ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION,

et al. Motion Date: February 1, 2010

Defendants.

______________________________________________________________________

MEMORANDUM OF DEFENDANT,

AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL,

IN SUPPORT OF ITS MOTION

FOR CERTIFICATION OF THE ORDER OF DECEMBER 17, 2009,

DENYING SUMMARY JUDGMENT,

FOR INTERLOCUTORY APPEAL PURSUANT TO 28 U.S.C. §1292(B)

_____________________________________________________________________

Dan Katz;

Counsel for Defendant Air Line Pilots Association, International

In an interlocutory appeal regarding this issue, ALPA would ask the Court of Appeals to determine that the same legal and evidentiary standard applies to claims of bad faith motivation in this situation as in all other situations facing a union. This is the standard adopted by the Supreme Court in Humphrey, 375 U.S. at 348, requiring “substantial evidence of fraud, deceitful action or dishonest conduct” in order to establish bad faith.

The Humphrey standard is an application of the well-settled rule that courts and juries are to treat union collective bargaining decisions with a high degree of deference—a requirement in turn born of the heavy responsibilities placed on unions as democratic membership organizations. Like ALPA, such organizations often have governing structures extending from the national level to the employee unit level, and their responsibilities require them to function, and to make a wide variety of decisions, often under great pressure, in complicated and difficult circumstances. Thus, as the Supreme Court has stressed, “Any substantive examination of a union’s performance . . . must be highly deferential, recognizing the wide latitude that negotiators need for the effective performance of their bargaining responsibilities.” Air Line Pilots Ass’n, Int’l v. O’Neill, 499 U.S. 65, 78 (1991) (emphasis added). As a result, “the relationship between the courts and labor unions is similar to that between the courts and the legislature.” Id.

This requirement of judicial deference applies to bad faith claims as well as other DFR claims…..

Bad Faith as defined by the US Supreme Court
= Substantial Evidence of Fraud, deceitful action or dishonest conduct.


Bad Faith as defined by the Honorable Neil Wake????
USAPA, ALPA and the US Supreme Court are in agreement on “Bad Faith”


We wonder how the 9th will rule on this issue?
Ooops!, they already have.


FOR PUBLICATION

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS

FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

CHERYL ANN BECK, ü

Plaintiff-Appellee, No. 05-16414

v. ý D.C. No. UNITED FOOD AND COMMERCIAL CV-02-00495-EHC

WORKERS UNION, Local 99, OPINION

Defendant-Appellant.

Appeal from the United States District Court

for the District of Arizona

Earl H. Carroll, District Judge, Presiding

Argued and Submitted

May 14, 2007—San Francisco, California
Filed November 1, 2007

Before: Cynthia Holcomb Hall, Diarmuid F. O’Scannlain,

and Sandra S. Ikuta, Circuit Judges.

Opinion by Judge Ikut
Although we cannot deem a union’s exercises of judgment to be wholly irrational and thus arbitrary, a union can still breach the duty of fair representation if it exercised its judgment in bad faith or in a discriminatory manner. Moore v. Bechtel Power Corp., 840 F.2d 634, 636 (9th Cir. 1988). To establish that the union’s exercise of judgment was discriminatory, a plaintiff must produce “substantial evidence of discrimination that is intentional, severe, and unrelated to legitimate union objectives.” Amalgamated Ass’n of St., Elec. Ry. & Motor Coach Employees of Am. v.Lockridge, 403 U.S.274, 301 (1971) (internal quotations omitted); see also Vaca, 386 U.S. at 177. To establish that theunion’s exercise of judgment was in bad faith, the plaintiff must show “substantial evidence of fraud, deceitful action or dishonest conduct.” Lockridge, 403 U.S. at 299.


Bad Faith has a very specific meaning in a DFR litigation and a plaintiff will have to prove that definition to prevail.

 

[767jetz]

As I get ready for the trip, I will say it saddens me that my job affords me a better life style than you all collectively have ended up with as pilots. I really hope some day pilots get it together. If you wonder why I comment on this...

OMG! This is so laughable it's almost sad!

Let's see if I got this straight. You go on and on misquoting legal rulings and taking things out of context in an attempt to prove your point, while having no inside knowledge of being a professional airline pilot whatsoever, by you own admission of being an outsider. ( confirmation bias )

Then you self proclaim for all to see that your lifestyle is better than a poor lowly pilot. (Which sounds an awful lot like status envy IMO and is definitely open to debate)

Then you casually assume we actually do care as to your reasoning for making such an odd comment, with a further self justifying monologue on the under performance of pilot's carriers.

There is really nothing to say to such a post except that, if I were you I wouldn't be so quick to brag and compare w2's with pilots who are afforded the ability, do to the nature of our job, to have other careers on the side which are often far more lucrative than the pilot gig. Not everything is as it seems on the surface.

And cheer up! There's nothing to be sad about. The careers of pilots at DL/NW, UA/CO, & SW, not to mention FedEx and UPS, are doing just fine.

Enjoy your vacation! B)

 

[ROACLT]

OMG! This is so laughable it's almost sad!

Let's see if I got this straight. You go on and on misquoting legal rulings and taking things out of context in an attempt to prove your point, while having no inside knowledge of being a professional airline pilot whatsoever, by you own admission of being an outsider. ( confirmation bias )

Then you self proclaim for all to see that your lifestyle is better than a poor lowly pilot. (Which sounds an awful lot like status envy IMO and is definitely open to debate)

Then you casually assume we actually do care as to your reasoning for making such an odd comment, with a further self justifying monologue on the under performance of pilot's carriers.

There is really nothing to say to such a post except that, if I were you I wouldn't be so quick to brag and compare w2's with pilots who are afforded the ability, do to the nature of our job, to have other careers on the side which are often far more lucrative than the pilot gig. Not everything is as it seems on the surface.

And cheer up! There's nothing to be sad about. The careers of pilots at DL/NW, UA/CO, & SW, not to mention FedEx and UPS, are doing just fine.

Enjoy your vacation! B)

As I indicated, I started out my career as a professional pilot and walked away from it in 1991. Knowing what I do in hindsight, I would have ran away from it. So I have some insight from years at Ransome and then Pan AM until it shut down. I was fortunate and through some family connections and was able to find employment as a longshoreman. I was hired by Northwest in 1997 and after lengthy discussion with my wife and the fact our second child had just been born, I turned down the job. You can consider that whatever inside knowledge of being a professional aviator you like but I can absolutely guarantee you I have no regrets. Obviously when Pan AM shut down, that was the end of the line for that job but even if I had taken the job at NWA in 1997, I would still be nowhere near my current income, or have had the financial security I have had over the last 17+ years. I have 2 teenagers and a 10 year old that I have been with every day of their lives, we had the income and stability for my wife to go back to school and become a Nurse anesthetist. If she worked full time, her income would exceed mine. Our family's financial future is secure, my kids financial future and college education funds are secure and I have been able to avoid the plague of setbacks and financial worries and disaster pilots have gone through since 9/11/2001. In 2002 when the bleeding of airline pilots began in earnest, we through strike and solidarity enjoyed a new contract that provided significant raises and pension enhancement. Other than the strikes and lockout, in which we never lacked confidence that we would prevail, I have avoided years of financial decline and misery that not all but many, many pilots have seen. So even though, I would still be employed at NWA had I taken the job, I can in no way regret the way things have worked our for my family, or envy the fact that the pilot profession despite declining pay and working conditions has required greater time away and sacrifices of their personal life, family and children since I walked away. You can attempt to analyze that it or spin it however you want but I promise you I lose no sleep over it.

So while I don't have the gig on the side, my wife managed to find one and we both have been home with our children every day. I don't it consider it laughable but a blessing, and my sadness is not reserved for myself but what used to be a proud pilot profession. One that ALPA more than any other has flown into the ground. Thanks for the vacation wish. I plan to enjoy it!

 

[767jetz]

As I indicated, I started out my career... blah blah blah...

Once again, it's hard not to laugh. At 3:36 you started your first odd post that I already commented on. You were whisking off on your month long vacation in paradise and your wife was even reading you the riot act for not preparing.

But WAIT! At 3:41 there was just one more thing you had to get off your chest just before signing off, once again assuring us that you'd "jump right back in a month from now."

Wow! That month seemed like only 3 hours! Maybe because at 6:44 you were right back with yet ANOTHER, even longer monologue about your income and stability and post-airline-pilot-life fortunes.

You see, I don't think it's funny that you did well after PanAm. I think that's great! I find it funny how you continue to self-justify to a bunch of strangers on the internet, implying that you have it better than us poor pilots.

I can't speak for everyone, but some of us are doing just fine and have no regrets about staying in our chosen profession. I'm doing exactly what I've wanted to do since I was 5 years old, with ZERO sacrifice from my family, and so far nothing but benfit. But I certainly don't feel the need to lay my portfolio out and prove to anyone how secure me and my family are.

And for the life of me, I can't figure out what your job, your wife's job, or your perceived status has to do with the 9th, the nic award, SCOTUS, DOH, or the discussion on this thread at all.

Have a great vacation. I'm sure we'll hear from you in another couple of hours... errrr.... I mean another month.

 

[LSS]

I can't speak for everyone, but some of us are doing just fine and have no regrets about staying in our chosen profession. I'm doing exactly what I've wanted to do since I was 5 years old, with ZERO sacrifice from my family, and so far nothing but benfit. But I certainly don't feel the need to lay my portfolio out and prove to anyone how secure me and my family are.

Whoa... talk about sour grapes!... And if you are already at the bottom of the barrel in almost every respect... what do you have to sacrifice?... wasn't like you gave up a better paying profession!

Obviously you didn't like the message delivered by this individual who has an astute knowledge of labor law and union principles. TOUGH!

 

[RSVP767]

No. No. No. The end result was a binding seniority list that becomes effective wit a joint contract. Not a proposal. Delaying the contract until circumstances changed did not change the list. If you guys had a joint contract prior to binding arbitration it all this would have been over years ago.

No, No, No.....Sorry, the end result was a proposed seniority list. And true, it could have become 'the active seniority list' if we could have ratified a joint contract that contained that proposed list. We didn't get that far! And, as the 9th stated, likely would not have ratified a contract with the NIC in it.

As for your last sentance.......True, but we didn't, so it isn't.

 

[767jetz]

Whoa... talk about sour grapes!... And if you are already at the bottom of the barrel in almost every respect... what do you have to sacrifice?... wasn't like you gave up a better paying profession!

??? You lost me there. Sour grapes? Bottom of the barrel?

I was responding to an odd post that was pretty off topic and sounded like a former airline pilot talking down his nose at pilots.

Like or dislike is irrelevant. Indifferent is more like it. One person's perception of personal success has nothing to do with another's. I just thought his need to proclaim it on this forum so loudly was comical, in a tragic sort of way. And his assumptions were a bit off.

As for his knowledge and interpretation of the law and how it applies to the seniority dispute at USAirways... well that's debatable.

Carry on...

 

[767jetz]

No, No, No.....Sorry, the end result was a proposed seniority list. And true, it could have become 'the active seniority list' if we could have ratified a joint contract that contained that proposed list. We didn't get that far! And, as the 9th stated, likely would not have ratified a contract with the NIC in it.

As for your last sentance.......True, but we didn't, so it isn't.

But once you have a joint contract, that seniority list becomes binding. And if the joint contract contradicts the arbitrated list, you have an instantly ripe DFR suit. ALPA could not walk away from the Nic award without concurrence of the west. Neither can USAPA. That is the opinion of many. The courts will decide.

There are only 2 ways this is going to go forward. The full court will hear the west's case, or if they don't the west will file suit after the joint contract comes out without the Nic award, with an injunction to prevent the new list from being used until it is resolved.

This is the only way we will find out who is on the right side of this debate. It is ridiculous for people to say, "it's over. Just give it up." There is still far too much legal wrangling left to occur, for either side to declare victory.

 

[Hate2fly]

But once you have a joint contract, that seniority list becomes binding. And if the joint contract contradicts the arbitrated list, you have an instantly ripe DFR suit. ALPA could not walk away from the Nic award without concurrence of the west. Neither can USAPA. That is the opinion of many. The courts will decide.

There are only 2 ways this is going to go forward. The full court will hear the west's case, or if they don't the west will file suit after the joint contract comes out without the Nic award, with an injunction to prevent the new list from being used until it is resolved.

This is the only way we will find out who is on the right side of this debate. It is ridiculous for people to say, "it's over. Just give it up." There is still far too much legal wrangling left to occur, for either side to declare victory.

767jetz,

The west own lawyer J. Freund told the west all the risk was on the west side. The west co-founders aquaboy and fergie sold the west group down the river. Much like yourself, they were younger and smarter than everyone else. The desert judge had a best friend in the game. He made some poor decisions. He was losing sleep during the trial because of the poor decisions he was making in the court room. The 9th spanked all over the poor desert judge. And by the way, it is over for now! You really should be concerned about those 3 year Captains at Continental........I can't imagine them being put ahead of my college roomate a 1991 UAL f/o on the 747. In the west world of aviation the Continental pilots would make out great! Of course, ALPA just happened to change the merger policy slightly with length of service language. I feel bad for the UAL furloughed pilots! Just think about this for a minute or two.......if ALPA's merger policy puts it to the UAL pilots in a bad way......you guys will have the numbers to start your own United Pilots Association. We can help you with the process! Just let us know.

Hate

 

[Hate2fly]

But once you have a joint contract, that seniority list becomes binding. And if the joint contract contradicts the arbitrated list, you have an instantly ripe DFR suit. ALPA could not walk away from the Nic award without concurrence of the west. Neither can USAPA. That is the opinion of many. The courts will decide.

There are only 2 ways this is going to go forward. The full court will hear the west's case, or if they don't the west will file suit after the joint contract comes out without the Nic award, with an injunction to prevent the new list from being used until it is resolved.

This is the only way we will find out who is on the right side of this debate. It is ridiculous for people to say, "it's over. Just give it up." There is still far too much legal wrangling left to occur, for either side to declare victory.

767,

Do you really think Parker wants a joint contract? A joint contract will cost him 400 to 500 million per year. The only way Parker will get a joint contract is if he has a merger in the works....period! Team Tempe realizes how bad the blood is between the two pilot groups. The east is in a superior position right now and we are waiting for our LOA 93 pay restoration. If we are successful.......it is truly game over. Our east attrition will be kicking into high gear in 2012. We already have over 500 guys on LTD/Medicals.....200 check airmen....93 Mil....and 91 LOA. We have 2500 plus pilot positions on the current bid. In the next 14 years we will retire over 2800 pilots for age 65. Every month that goes by the east pilots will be booking up the east list. All new hires to the east will be Captains in a flash....I wonder how they would vote for a joint contract? If I were a new hire I would want to keep it separate forever! This will be fun to watch.

Remember the MDA law suit is still a problem for ALPA. Old St. Nic isn't going to like what ALPA tried to cover up! Watch what ALPA does!

Hate

 

[bigbusdrvr]

OMG! This is so laughable it's almost sad!

Let's see if I got this straight. You go on and on misquoting legal rulings and taking things out of context in an attempt to prove your point, while having no inside knowledge of being a professional airline pilot whatsoever, by you own admission of being an outsider. ( confirmation bias )

Then you self proclaim for all to see that your lifestyle is better than a poor lowly pilot. (Which sounds an awful lot like status envy IMO and is definitely open to debate)

Then you casually assume we actually do care as to your reasoning for making such an odd comment, with a further self justifying monologue on the under performance of pilot's carriers.

There is really nothing to say to such a post except that, if I were you I wouldn't be so quick to brag and compare w2's with pilots who are afforded the ability, do to the nature of our job, to have other careers on the side which are often far more lucrative than the pilot gig. Not everything is as it seems on the surface.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For a guy that went from a mustang to a bmw for an avatar, Id question your status envy perspective (penis envy, little dick syndrom?)

I dont know.....why dont you an that boeing boy discuss it you both have some much "skin in the game" or do you just want to save face since the 9th has all but said you are all wrong.......

Good luck with that continental merger, met a capt in europe withcontinental with 13 years......yea your gonna love the alpa slottin/dovetailing......the only tail makin out on that aint gonna be your LOS with united...

Couldnt happen to a better guy, ........Cheers!!

And cheer up! There's nothing to be sad about. The careers of pilots at DL/NW, UA/CO, & SW, not to mention FedEx and UPS, are doing just fine.

Enjoy your vacation! B)