US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/14-10/22

[nic4us]

Also wrong because you are apparently applying one dimensional thinking. Remember we are talking Nic vs pre merger.

Also remember that this is a math debate (your post) and not a "You should thank me for your job" debate.

A math debate, I will have to consider that. 35 years ago, at the age of 16, when I scored a near perfect score on the SAT math, I would have taken that challenge. However, these days, when I can barely muster enough brain power to be smarter than a 5th grader, it might be prudent if I stick to the one dimensional thinking.


Oh, I cannot pass this up. We are not talking Nic vs. pre-merger. We are talking Nic vs. a pre-merger forecast of the future, werein you are applying every rosie scenario of how good it would have been had everything gone your way. Using this kind of logic, I could say that the West had a premerger expectation of doubling in size every 6 years, and would have had a pilot force totaling 15,072 by the time I retired. D. Odell #1884x2x2x2=15,072.

The point is, you are making a correlation between DOH and future status, while disregarding present status, and assuming nothing else would change. You say that east pilots who would have occupied the "top spots for years" will now make it to only 800. I say it is impossible to predict if that is a reduction in relative seniority, because we do not know the size of the total pilot group when that pilot reachs that 800 number, or the size of the group they would have reached the "top spots" in. If that pilot makes it to 800/8000, compared to a "top spot" of 200/2000 (both extremely plausible scenarios) their relative seniority would not have been effected by the Nic.

 

[HPDriver]

Wow, talk about windfalls!!!

A 1999 hire will be getting just over $10,300 from the lump sum distribution.

These junior pilots who, by the way, could not have qualified for the pension plan because they lacked the longevity, now get this undeserved chunk of change at the expense of their senior pilots.

Talk about lottery winners.

Its one thing trying to steal from the west, but stealing from your own?

Wow!

Amazing how the USAPA guys are avoiding this post.

Not even a peep.

Even they can't seem to spin this in their own world.

 

[boeingplt]

Amazing how the USAPA guys are avoiding this post.

Not even a peep.

Even they can't seem to spin this in their own world.

The lump sum is compensating for the effects of the concessions, all of them - reduction in pay, reduction in retirement (which will effect everyone, BTW, even the pilots who were not vested because they will be by the time they retire), massive work rule changes that placed enormous downward pressure on the group ie: downgrades and delayed recall from furlough...

So when you consider the furloughees and the impact these effects had on them you don't appear to appreciate the hardship that they endured compared to everyone else who remained employed. Everyone sacrificed to be sure, but they , as a group, endured some of the worst of the affair.

More than 75% of the voters agreed with this and most of them were not furloughed.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

The DOH DUH folks are consistently and conveniently leaving out the part of the Nic award that gives the top 517 seniority positions to the former east group. Because of that clause in the award, EVERY SINGLE WEST PILOT has an east pilot senior to him/herself.

Not only that, but as of today over 250 of those 517 are still under the age of 60. The east "Super Seniority" advantage will remain in place for many years to come.

Funny thing is, all the members in the West group were mature enough to understand, that even though we "took a hit" on this one, an arbitration is an arbitration.

That is what integrity is all about. And it is not about spending millions of $$$ and wasting years of unrecoverable time trying to get an arbitration re-do. Or whining infinitem about how badly the east will suffer under the Nic.

 

[john john]

Stop trying to shift the blame. You have no one to point to except yourself. If you did not like the language vote the agreement down. Simple.

You don’t get it do you the east contracts were negotiated to the bottom level of the airline industry to get in line with American West pay and benefits and work rules

 

[BoeingBoy]

You don’t get it do you the east contracts were negotiated to the bottom level of the airline industry to get in line with American West pay and benefits and work rules

Yet the East contract as amended by LOA93 is strangely inferior to the West contract in pay, many benefits, and many work rules...

In reality, and despite the popular fantasy that it was done expressly for the US/HP merger, the worst parts of various lcc's pilot contracts were incorporated. If I recall correctly, for example, the pay rate for the 320/737 came from B6's contract at the time (without the time and a half provision naturally) with the 757/767 & 330 rates set by the difference from the 320/737 rates already in the US contract.

The purpose was to achieve the same pilot cost per ASM as the average of several lcc's, including HP, WN, F9, B6, Spirit (never can remember their code), etc. Because of the average age/longevity of the US active pilot group compared to those lcc's, reductions below the average of those contracts were used to arrive at the same cost per ASM. Hence the US contract/LOA93 ended up worse in some way than any of the individual lcc contracts.

Jim

 

[john john]

Due you think HP wants there 1999 contract back ???????????
Ever east employee would LOVE to have there 1999 industry standard contract back
American West has help lowered the bar in the airline industry. Airline employees have to pay the price for it

 

[BoeingBoy]

Due you think HP wants there 1999 contract back ???????????
Ever east employee would LOVE to have there 1999 industry standard contract back

Unless you've got a time machine stored in your garage, what's that got to do with anything?

American West has always lowered the bar in the airline industry. Airline employees have to pay the price for it

That used to be the slam used against WN employees - look at them now...

Before you can get to the point of "airline employees have to" accept anything you've got to have a concessionary proposal voted down. When airline employees vote to accept concessions, there is no "have to" there. US pilots ratified LOA93, nobody held a gun to their head. They accepted a worse contract than HP, B6, and certainly WN. Trying to blame someone else for that vote is rubbish.

Jim

 

[john john]

Trying to blame someone else for that vote is rubbish.

Jim

The merge boy the merge it was all about aligning the contract with HP.Glass just had a field day with the pilots

 

[BoeingBoy]

The merge boy the merge it was all about aligning the contract with HP.Glass just had a field day with the pilots

Fine...provide proof...boy.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Fine...provide proof...boy.

Jim

PS added: Don't you really believe that if US' intention was to get the contracts in line for the US/HP merger they would have just put the HP contracts on the table and the merger would have been their POR all along. They had the ace of BK and abrogating contracts up their sleeve if the employee groups didn't accept the HP contracts. They didn't do that for one reason - even the HP contracts were more expensive than they wanted as a stand-alone carrier and being a stand-alone carrier was the plan at first. The merger didn't become the plan until well after all the employee groups had ratified the concessions and it became clear that US couldn't exist as a stand-alone carrier. Read the BK filings - it's all laid out there in black and white. How they arrived at the amount of concessions, the stand-alone plan, etc.

 

[N924PS]

The lump sum is compensating for the effects of the concessions, all of them - reduction in pay, reduction in retirement (which will effect everyone, BTW, even the pilots who were not vested because they will be by the time they retire), massive work rule changes that placed enormous downward pressure on the group ie: downgrades and delayed recall from furlough...

Do the math.

$10,300 or so before taxes this year and next will not come close to compensating for the loss of the pension and 36%-%100 paycuts. Or for the monies left on the table while fighting the Nicolau Award to the bitter end.

But at least it's something.

 

[boeingplt]

Do the math.

$10,300 or so before taxes this year and next will not come close to compensating for the loss of the pension and 36%-%100 paycuts. Or for the monies left on the table while fighting the Nicolau Award to the bitter end.

But at least it's something.

Agree with everything except the Nic part. Shocking, I know.

 

[luvn737s]

The lump sum is compensating for the effects of the concessions, all of them - reduction in pay, reduction in retirement (which will effect everyone, BTW, even the pilots who were not vested because they will be by the time they retire), massive work rule changes that placed enormous downward pressure on the group ie: downgrades and delayed recall from furlough...

If that was the case, and the monetary effects were felt proportional to pay rates, why wasn't the distribution done proportionally as well instead of per-capita?

 

[wings396]

Fine...provide proof...boy.

Jim

PS added: Don't you really believe that if US' intention was to get the contracts in line for the US/HP merger they would have just put the HP contracts on the table and the merger would have been their POR all along. They had the ace of BK and abrogating contracts up their sleeve if the employee groups didn't accept the HP contracts. They didn't do that for one reason - even the HP contracts were more expensive than they wanted as a stand-alone carrier and being a stand-alone carrier was the plan at first. The merger didn't become the plan until well after all the employee groups had ratified the concessions and it became clear that US couldn't exist as a stand-alone carrier. Read the BK filings - it's all laid out there in black and white. How they arrived at the amount of concessions, the stand-alone plan, etc.

While there is no solid "proof" on this topic, I do believe that that talks were taking place around the time of BK-2 between HP & US. Lowering our costs AGAIN was to make US more attractive to any potential buyer or investors. I knew somebody that was close to the top during this time, and talks with Doug and HP were indeed taking place. Lakefield was brought onboard to trim the costs one final time before getting a deal done with anyone that he could.