US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/14-10/22

[nic4us]

Does anyone know how far under block the West was during sep-dec 2008 timeframe. Or were to find anything to read on the under block arbitration.

I am pretty certain remedy will be sought in the form of a return to work of West furloughs, I am hearing numbers from 0 to 80. However, I would find it incredibly ironic if in the end it turns out to be $10,300 per West pilot effected.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Does anyone know how far under block the West was during sep-dec 2008 timeframe. Or were to find anything to read on the under block arbitration.

I am pretty certain remedy will be sought in the form of a return to work of West furloughs, I am hearing numbers from 0 to 80. However, I would find it incredibly ironic if in the end it turns out to be $10,300 per West pilot effected.

USAPA has the opportunity to really change the view from the west if they do the right thing and get some/all of our furloughed guys back. Do the right thing USAPA! West was furloughed due to a shift in block hours. Give us those block hours back and get our guys working again.

 

[BoeingBoy]

While there is no solid "proof" on this topic, I do believe that that talks were taking place around the time of BK-2 between HP & US.

The Pittsburg paper gave a timeline and said that talks with HP were held during the summer of 2004 but broke down before BK2, only to be resumed in 2005. The bankruptcy filings said that the plan was to lower CASM to the average of 5 or 6 lcc's (yes, HP was one) and gave a breakdown of the costs per ASM of the various workgroups at those carriers. The POR was stated to be emerging as a low cost stand-alone carrier.

US lied to the judge and creditors or "someone close to the top during this time" was talking about a specific period before or during BK. As you say, there is no specific proof that US wanted to align contracts with HP (why didn't they if that were the plan all along) but there are the BK filings to support my version.

As an aside, the same timeline also had talks taking place with UA prior to BK - why is there no "urban legend" that the concessions were to align the US contracts with UA? For the simple reason that the only party interested in exploring a merger at any point in 2004/2005 was HP so everyone says "Aha - that's who is responsible for the big hit we took."

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

If that was the case, and the monetary effects were felt proportional to pay rates, why wasn't the distribution done proportionally as well instead of per-capita?

That's an easy one. The pro-rata and per-capita options were balloted by the membership this past summer. And members (in good standing, including those out west) voted decisively to do the per-capita option.

IMHO, even the senior pilots (who would have benefited by the pro-rata method) realized that the pro-rata method would effectively throw a lot of the furloughed fo's under the bus. The furloughed pilots were the ones who really gave up the most when one stops to think about it. And the membership decided the per-capita was the fairer distribution.

 

[boeingplt]

If that was the case, and the monetary effects were felt proportional to pay rates, why wasn't the distribution done proportionally as well instead of per-capita?

Because the concessions involved far more than just pay rates. Namely productivity enhancements. For example, how do you measure a furloughee's post LOA 93 w2? How about folks who went from BH to reserve, Capt to F/o, Group 1 to Group 2, etc...

 

[luvn737s]

NYCBus-
I left out the comment made by Boeingplt that the lump sum was compensation for concessions. The senior pilots took a bigger monetary hit as a result of the concessions and then got a smaller lump sum "compensation". USAPA ( not so candidly representing the junior interests) pushed for the per capita methodology yet with the other side of their forked tongue they espouse the rights inherent in seniority. So when does seniority really matter?

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Due you think HP wants there 1999 contract back ???????????
Ever east employee would LOVE to have there 1999 industry standard contract back
American West has help lowered the bar in the airline industry. Airline employees have to pay the price for it

American West? - there was never such an airline by that name. Are you one of those "Catfish on the radio" dudes too?

If you are referring to America West, perhaps you could enlighten your readers as to which of the east negotiators worked for AWA during the LOA-93 development. That's right; there were none. Furthermore, it is laughable that such a tiny, thin route, west coast airline could bring the mighty US Airways pilot group to its knees.

But we will pretend, just for a second, that you can blame your lousy paycheck on the AWA pilots.

Now stay with me on this - I'll type slowly: One other point deserves mentioning then: had the east 1999 pay scales remained in effect up until mid-2004, it would have been absolute and final curtains for the former US Airways. As it turned out, those low pay scales were a strong contributing factor piquing the investors' interest in that tired old Chrystal City airline.

So, using your logic, you should be grateful that AWA was around back then to show the way and help rescue your job from the unemployment line.

Somehow, though, I am failing to feel the love.....

 

[Megasnoop]

USAPA has the opportunity to really change the view from the west if they do the right thing and get some/all of our furloughed guys back. Do the right thing USAPA! West was furloughed due to a shift in block hours. Give us those block hours back and get our guys working again.

Tiger, I think USAPA motive is more concerned about getting it done right than really changing "the view from the west." I said before and again, ALL the recalls belong with the side that took the hit on the furloughs due to company violating. The grievance was filed because of West going below the numbers. That was the spirit the dispute was filed and those WEST jobs need to come back, period. If we got some East due to the same thing, great, but the diispute was filed based on low West numbers. Since we're still separate, there are only 2 lists (E/W) that the company and union can use. I hear what your hinting, but if your furloughed under one set of rules and the rules don't change, you come back on the same set of rules. If you think USAPAs wrong, go back to Wake. He might turn it for you if hes got the juristiction. (That was an honest comment, not sarcasm)

Tiger, we're not going to change your minds on USAPA. We'll still be the great satan even if we got every West pilot back and no Easts. USAPA will do the right thing because they have to, not to change minds. They got to comply with the contract. Besides you got 2 pilots, Brookman and Vasin, putting together the remedy. Good balance. If its not done to your liking, Im sure Vasin will let us all know.

Dear Megasnoop, It is quite clear your mission on the forum is to defend USAPA at every turn. Wouldn't it be wise to use language and a tone that would foster a means of east and west working together.

BLT. I've said this before, I am "1 for 5" in voting on the leaders now in. My comment on some things didn't make me popular in CLT. Maybe they think all who hated ALPA would love USAPA. I was replying to Nic4us "usapa discrimination machine",

Remarks like usapa discrimination machine. That bodes well for pullling in the same direction? Your kidding, right?

With continuating language like his, will we ever come together? I posed the 800-pound question.

Your current act of lashing out at both east and west pilot commentary is not winning any hearts or minds, but just reinforcing everyones view of USAPA as the worst (so-called) union to ever exist. BLT

You got me lost. I lashed out at "EAST" commentary? Where? Until 2 days ago, Ive been off the board for a month. Comments on WEST commentary were just as I said. But if I lashed out at EAST commentary, how could my mission be to defend USAPA? You got a WEST guy Nic4us saying Vasin made all the difference,
(I find it interesting that what is probably the first joint grievance to have West input ( Mitch Vasin), is won in our favor. This is the biggest lesson usapa should take back to CLT.)
when there have only been 3 TA disputes arbitrated by USAPA, ALL 3 he was involved in and 2 lost. He seems capable according to the SBA, but these overreaching gottchas got to be called out. (There were actually 2 other disputes filed by MacAlvena, but your side no-showed and lost them by default. Please correct me if I got any of that wrong)

 

[HPDriver]

So when you consider the furloughees and the impact these effects had on them you don't appear to appreciate the hardship that they endured compared to everyone else who remained employed.

Are you referring to the ones that got flying jobs after they got furloughed? How about those that made gobs of money selling real estate? And with all the messages I get, most of you east guys have "successful businesses" that you started while on furlough and don't really need this job.

Some hardship.

 

[boeingplt]

Are you referring to the ones that got flying jobs after they got furloughed? How about those that made gobs of money selling real estate? And with all the messages I get, most of you east guys have "successful businesses" that you started while on furlough and don't really need this job.

Some hardship.

You are obviously completely oblivious to the experience of furlough. Pilots lost homes, marriages, health... Many will never fully recover. Yeah, furlough is a real joy ride. Fortunately most pilots I know are intelligent enough to understand this. You're a real peach.

 

[boeingplt]

NYCBus-
I left out the comment made by Boeingplt that the lump sum was compensation for concessions. The senior pilots took a bigger monetary hit as a result of the concessions and then got a smaller lump sum "compensation". USAPA ( not so candidly representing the junior interests) pushed for the per capita methodology yet with the other side of their forked tongue they espouse the rights inherent in seniority. So when does seniority really matter?

So a furloughees who took a 150k per year pay cut as a result of the productivity concessions that kept them on the street gave less than those who remained employed. Makes sense....NOT!

 

[Tiger 1050]

Tiger, I think USAPA motive is more concerned about getting it done right than really changing "the view from the west." I said before and again, ALL the recalls belong with the side that took the hit on the furloughs due to company violating. The grievance was filed because of West going below the numbers. That was the spirit the dispute was filed and those WEST jobs need to come back, period. If we got some East due to the same thing, great, but the diispute was filed based on low West numbers. Since we're still separate, there are only 2 lists (E/W) that the company and union can use. I hear what your hinting, but if your furloughed under one set of rules and the rules don't change, you come back on the same set of rules. If you think USAPAs wrong, go back to Wake. He might turn it for you if hes got the juristiction. (That was an honest comment, not sarcasm)

Tiger, we're not going to change your minds on USAPA. We'll still be the great satan even if we got every West pilot back and no Easts. USAPA will do the right thing because they have to, not to change minds. They got to comply with the contract. Besides you got 2 pilots, Brookman and Vasin, putting together the remedy. Good balance. If its not done to your liking, Im sure Vasin will let us all know.

Mega,
The point I am trying to make is that I want to see guys get back to work. Period. I worry that USAPA may be tempted by the company and or the anti west club to massage things a bit. For example if the block hours are shifted back to the west that means the east suffers further reduction. This is in addition to the already (and not counting towards the TA limits) announced 190 reduction. If USAPA does the right thing they will most definitely be kicking their most valued constituents in the shorts while handing an apparent "lottery ticket" to the rogue west club. Frankly I think the company should take it in the shorts to make EVERYONE whole. I worry that because of this USAPA may elect to go with some form of lacking financial payment. Or simply give the company a pass if they forgo additional furloughs out east. Honestly how do they fix this? Frankly I could give a crap how bad this will effect the company as this mess is purely theirs.

 

[nycbusdriver]

So a furloughees who took a 150k per year pay cut as a result of the productivity concessions that kept them on the street gave less than those who remained employed. Makes sense....NOT!

Thank you for saving me the trouble of responding to luv737s post. You are exactly right, and this is the reason so many senior pilots on the east voted for the per-capita distribution.

 

[Freighterguynow]

West was furloughed due to a shift in block hours. Give us those block hours back and get our guys working again.

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2009/bts.../bts034_09.html

Table 11: Top 10 U.S. Airports, ranked by January-April 2009 Domestic Scheduled Enplanements

Passenger numbers in millions (000,000)


Jan-Apr 2009 Enplaned Passengers Pct. Change 2008-2009


1 Atlanta 11.773 1 12.334 -4.5
2 Chicago O'Hare 7.966 2 8.956 -11.1
3 Dallas/Ft. Worth 7.570 3 7.883 -4.0
4 Denver 7.022 4 7.327 -4.2
5 Los Angeles 6.110 6 6.637 -7.9
6 Las Vegas 5.933 5 6.736 -11.9
7 Phoenix 5.838 7 6.438 -9.3
8 Orlando 5.186 8 5.861 -11.5
9 Charlotte 5.106 10 5.136 -0.6
10 Houston Bush 4.849 9 5.287 -8.3

 

[Freighterguynow]

Las Vegas thrives in times when visitors embrace a burning-through-money mentality. So it's no surprise that fewer people are making Sin City pilgrimages these days. In fact, in 2008, Las Vegas McCarran Airport saw the biggest drop in passenger numbers since 1981

http://www.smartertravel.com/travel-advice...html?id=2830160



Las Vegas McCarran Intl Arpt, NV's Airport System Revenue Bond Outlook Revised To Negative On Downturn In Traffic

http://www.alacrastore.com/research/s-and-..._Traffic-745056



the airport has mothballed 13 gates in its existing terminals since the start of the year, in a move that will save money and also boost concessions in the areas that will remain open, according to McCarran’s first-quarter financial report to the public.

“These areas will remain closed until demand returns,â€￾ the report said.


http://www.bondbuyer.com/issues/118_175/-307272-1.html