Tiger 1050
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- Aug 4, 2007
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...I was just thinkin' Al Gore should be mighty proud of us! We have managed to recycle every argument!!! 
Happy hump day folks.
Happy hump day folks.
US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!
- Thread starter Richard
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Tiger 1050
Veteran
- Aug 4, 2007
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Okay fair enough. Have you been furloughed at all?
E
EastUS
Guest
What?...That from merely "YAWN..GEAR UP" sir?
From the initial announcement of the nic, immediately (and literally) followed by deluged west postings of (no kidding here, any can check the posting archives) "Booyooshaka!!!"..."It's OVER!...Get used to it!"...somewhat later: "You won't even get 200 cards!"..."Send the cards..I DARE you!"...We've seen/heard west folks noting on video: "Do you know why I hate you guys!!?...I hate all of youse!!"..."There is a west and an east..and we hate you guys.."....the famous "You can live on LOA93 Forever!!"....well...What I've sometimes almost actually wondered is whether or not such postings were the result of a calculated effort at infuriating, distancing and entirely alienating the east....honestly; it's almost impossible to believe otherwise at times.
Add to that the west response towards the east's profit sharing, (actual sharing with the west that is)..which amounted to "Thanks...Suckers!!", and the additional west "support" for pay parity as well :blink: My personal "favorite" was/is the west campaign of denying jumpseats to their east 'fellow pilots"...All in all...a pretty impressive demonstration of just how much "Integrity" truly "Matters"...and why all should now "move forward" as one happy family...and immediately vote in some/ANY contract, regardless of how pathetic it would be...so long as it included the nic nastiness
There's evidently no worries for the west contingent though, as even recent postings state: "The east resolve is crumbling. Put up a contract and it will pass." "the east captains I talk to say the same." (All of the east captains posting here must represent only a tiny handfull of insane holdouts I suppose)..."..the east pilots require far more education and correction than any other group of employees at any other airline"..."it's not YOUR attrition anymore"..."Well, it's not really up to you."..."Can't wait for you to be my FO. We'll have a great time."
"...the east pilots require far more education and correction than any other group of employees at any other airline." In all fairness to that: I must acknowledge that the west contingent has fully supplied the "education" required for any rational east pilot to fully appreciate the potential joys attendant to voting in nic, and being then able to look forward to sharing a cockpit with the west. I can't speak for all others but, to my thinking; that inestimable benefit alone should be worth any sacrifce for the group or any individual east pilot.......
"Does anyone understand how the east thinks?" Methinks a better question would be: Could anyone, even POSSIBLY....NOT understand how the east thinks?..and why?
Freebird
Veteran
Pounding my chest? Thats rich. The matter is in the courts hands, and we have the Law on our side. Its just a matter of time. Sooner than you'd like to believe.Your right, I am sure the company is bargaining in good faith.
The company is waiting for the litigation to end. When Usapa is done wasting time appealing the ruling, the company will be ready to negotiate. Usapas 'plan' to reopen every TA'd section is a little discerning. Why are they opening each section? To Delay? Delaying the inevitable I guess.
I am sure that the pilot group will vote for a contract that will result in more furloughs.
Can you back-up your statement? Or are you trying to spread a rumor? What leads you to believe that there will be more furloughs? Seriously. Aside from the economy....if these groups would have been merged, as they should have, furloughs would have come by way of the economy, rather than staffing the airplanes we had.
Why dont you keep up. The "tings" are not going anywhere fast.
Good catch on the my spelling error. Is that a question? "?"
Tell me ole wise one , just what do you think the company is going to offer good enough for the contract to pass.
They will offer you a chance to put this mess behind us to move forward. Usapa would be a lot more effective is all pilots were pulling on the same rope, in the same direction. Are you going to get SWA money? No. But put a contract up to vote on, you know it will pass.
Cashing in your lotto ticket doesnt count.
Lotto ticket? Do you mean the Arbitrated Seniority List created referred to as the Nic Award? The Relative Seniority list that gave the the top 517 DOH? The list that your side agreed to place all FURLOUGHED pilots below, active pilots? Lotto ticket?
Keep pounding your little chest but it is not doing any good. It really is not up to you either.
Jim, I don't want anything from him, I would will be happy with a Mississippi fence. He gets his great deal out west and I'll take my east job. He can keep his so called better career. He took a American West job he deserves every bit of it.
Hawkhunter
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- Jul 11, 2005
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HPearlyretiree
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- Nov 6, 2002
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Well then, you took a USAir job, a troubled carrier. You deserve every bit of it. If you were furloughed, you weren't working as a pilot, you shouldn't get the seniority.
No one has an entitlement to any job.
Piedmont1984
Veteran
- Jan 12, 2004
- 1,737
- 897
Not flaunting. Just have to 'splain to some that my screen name isn't an address - or a phone number.
As to the rest of your post, I agree with one thing. Lets just wait - and vote.
If he is over a 1000 numbers senior to you, at least 650 of those numbers are east pilots, who have always been senior to you. Those 350 West pilots that are senior to you then minimally dilute east attrition when you consider the added West attrition, the desire to stay in base, and the fact that the attrition was preserved in the first place.
If you are saying 1000+ West pilots are now senior to you that is a different matter all together.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
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- #821
If doing A causes B, it's disingenuous to say that you don't want B to happen but insist on doing A...
DOH moves West pilots backwards from the position they have attained, so insisting on DOH is insisting on taking the advancement that West pilots enjoyed during their careers away from them. You can say you don't want that to happen all you want but it is the result of what you demand - your words don't change the outcome.
Jim
nic4us,
I'm an East '88 hire and I was never furloughed. I was a 737 Captain in PHL in January 2000, and then BWI thru December 2001 with just over 2000 pilots below me. I was sitting at about 60% on our list (where were you in Jan 2000?). After 9/11, and the ensuing bankruptcies and furloughs, there were 120 pilots between me and the street. I found myself sitting at about 99% on our list! So why did I stick around?........Attrition!!! It was coming, and coming hard and fast. By December 2007 I was back within 425 numbers of the left seat again (not talking 190 here either). Why?.......Attrition!!! Had the retirement door not slammed shut I would be back in the left seat or very close to it by now. By the time the doors open again we will have MORE THAN, yes MORE THAN 1250 over age 60 guys on the East and advancement will begin again.....and accelerate. Think about it....that's more than 1 in 3 East pilots over age 60! And actually I believe those numbers are conservative. It's probably closer to 1500! 45%! Nearly 1 in 2! Got the picture yet?
I, and guys like me, contributed to keep this company healthy because of that attrition. We invested the blood, sweat and years!!! And we didn't do it so you on the West could come in here and 'steal our future' just because some misguided arbitrator said so. Look, I don't believe the West should have to pay for, nor be penalized for what we've been through here on the East. However, you shouldn't be rewarded or benefit from it either. That is exactly what has happened with Nicolau having given no regard for LOS and not providing protection for our attrition.
Consider this. A friend of mine was hired on the East 11 years after myself and was 1070 numbers junior to me. He was furloughed and subsequently hired at America West. He is now 600 senior to me on the NIC (and 1800 numbers senior to himself, LOL)? Aprox. 325 west guys are senior to me by date of hire. I could understand 700, or maybe even 900 going ahead of me given the despairities between our two groups. However, having ALL but 50 West pilots go ahead of me is ludicrous. I was hired young. I have 22 years in and about 20 to go. I would have retired in the top 25 but will now top out at #700 at best under NIC. Like I said in a previous post, a good arbitration would have struck a balance. Nicolau failed! He failed you, me, the company, and ALPA. BTW, have you seen ALPA's merger policy lately.....as it pertains to seniority integration?
As for your subsequent post (#797)....I'm a junior FO now, and no, I don't want a meager pay raise. I've taken a 50% cut through downgrades and concessions. That means a 100% raise to get me back to my 2000, 2001 wages (that's a decade ago! Have you been here a decade yet?). Hell, even with my wife now working, combined, we still have not grossed more than I made alone in 2001. So, I have adjusted......and a meager 20% raise with a smaller minimum fleet, more shrinkage, and NIC do not interest me. You're right about one thing. The amount of pay we can extract from the company in this economy is limited. And quite frankly....it ain't comin'! But attrition is! And yes, so long as we are separate IT IS OURS!
Hey, here's an idea. Give old "Save Dave" Odell a call. Tell him we'll give him 12 yr (top of scale) FO pay right now..... but he'll NEVER check out. Think he'll go for that? Yeah, I didn't think so! VNIIMN!
Freebird
Veteran
Once the appeal process fails, barring any Appeal to the Supreme court (thus wasting Union dues), the pilots on BOTH sides are going to want a contract. Cleary and Co. are growing very unpopular. Maybe not to those who post here, but in general.
So, after the appeal is lost, expect the negotiations to resume. And with no reason to delay (unless Usapa wants to face an injunction) then you're only hurting yourselves by delaying the process. You lost when you sent your Merger Committee in to get DOH. DOH was DOA.
Call your BPR and ask them, they'll tell you the same thing. They're honest guys, right?
Jim, You quoted my fence. I can't move a west pilot backwards if I can't go there. Nothing disingenuous. They signed on to narrowbody jobs out west and that's all they should get. They should keep their advancement ,out west. They shouldn't be able to use that advancement back east.
...I was just thinkin' Al Gore should be mighty proud of us! We have managed to recycle every argument!!!
Agreed. We recyle same-old-stuff because until the 9th speaks, there's not really any news. Except for the latest DC escapades. Talk about airing your dirty laundry in public! The upcoming battle on that should generate a lot of West and East-ALPA-file doom and gloom about the end of USAPA. Latest heard on the grapevine is DC will bring up charges against MC and maybe TP. Those should be heard by the appeals board. The usual high crimes and misdomeaners, I expect. There's some nasty charges from what I hear. That will all shake out in public, distracting us and giving the West non-members more fuel to trash USAPA. Meanwhile, LAS dies in three weeks and the only sign of West sanity, notwithstanding his starting AOL, Eric Ferguson, will be just another line holder. West doesn't have near the MIGs to get another BPR member. They're still short a couple hundred. DC Vs MC will prove another distraction, but won't change the resolve or overall direction. USAPA is not a cult of personality.
I want a new contract, but I can't see voting for one if it costs me money over the rest of my career. This Kirby offer does exactly that. Best case, a pittance pay raise, because even with a loss of 20 airframes, I'm bounced to smaller equipment. Lose 40, I'm close to reserve, lose all 70, which could happen, and I'm close to downgrade. I say this because a TA presented for a vote tomorrow, will have to include the NIC. That's my opinion. Maybe not so in a few months, but right now, a TA must have the NIC in it. I don't see how the company can agree to anything without the NIC in it - right now. That's all speculation, because right now, there aren't the BPR votes to pass a NICed-up TA to be sent out for a vote. Nicolau can't force a vote, neither can AOL, Wake, the NMB or the company.
No matter where you side on the "Great Cleary Debate" (or is that "The Cleary The Great Debate"), it's not going to tear apart the union. We've all been here too long, invested too much time and lost too much money to roll over and de-certify or let ALPA back. That won't happen. I think anyone who suggests East resolve is deteriorating doesn't get it. All in all, our strength comes from the membership pushing the BPRs. The officers are servants. But as opposed to ALPA, where the Reps could elect and remove the officers, here at USAPA, only the MIGs can remove. It's a better system.
Speaking of Al Gore. Coldest Orange Bowl in history, coldest winter in China in 50 years. Coldest summer in Peru on record. Too many polar bears, not enough garbage dumps in Nome. This winter is one kind of global warming I can do without.
Hammer away at me if you must, Tiger, Nic4us, Cleardirect, and all you East ALPA-philes. I don't think I've posted anything that is all that controversial, but maybe I posted a couple things in paragraph 1 you weren't aware of. It seems like for us, there still some old scores to settle. Circular firing squad. Anyway, off on another international conquest of the Atlantic. TTFN!
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